I dive into the world of decentralized finance with Martin Krung, a prominent figure in the crypto space and a key contributor to Curve Finance.

Martin has been an active participant in the crypto community for over a decade, focusing on innovative solutions and technological advancements. As a full-stack developer with a background in art software and innovation engineering, Martin brings a unique perspective to the ever-evolving crypto landscape.

In this episode, we explore the intricacies of liquidity management, the challenges and opportunities within decentralized exchanges, and Martin’s journey in the development of Curve Finance. Join us as we unpack the complexities of DeFi through the insights of one of its most seasoned contributors.

Favorite Martin Krung Quote

“The crypto market was filled with narratives people tell… you imagine this is the next big thing, and you buy the token. If it hits, then you make money until the story doesn’t add up, and the price drops. It’s an interesting force; however, we are not affected by it anymore.” – Martin Krung

Additional Resources

• Curve Finance
• Cryptonative
• @MartinKrung on X

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Full Transcript of Our Conversation

Introduction to Curve and Decentralized Finance

00:31.65 – Brian David Crane
Please welcome Martin Krung he’s a swiss cryptoative for over the past twelve years he’s a full stack developer with a background and art software and innovation engineering and most importantly, this is the key part. He is a key curve finance contributor when it comes to business development for the decentralized exchange.

Martin and I have been talking via telegram. I am excited to be chatting with him here on the podcast. Thanks for making time for those who don’t know what curve is and why you say on Linkedin that it is the ah the best ah decentralized exchange or dex. What is yours? Ah. What’s your quick elevator pitch for the curve?

Understanding Curve’s Technological Advantage

01:11.58 – Martin Krung
Yeah, Curve has like the best technology for like known managed liquidity basically because it’s able to you don’t have to mention liquidity. It’s just. 2 years a and m and then it is intensely liquid itself and it’s not like all those 2 worklike managed positions now so you never have to manage your position basically and the the main we have like different products but the best technology we have is for stable staish assets basically so and.

01:40.99 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, like kind.

01:42.61 – Martin Krung
If you pay like the coins are all like an e liquid taking ether then it’s like the best technology out there. Basically that’s only 1 multiflower like product. Basically this is like the first one. Basically.

01:57.27 – Brian David Crane
No yeah, why? no we’re going to get into Lama Lennd and Crv ah usd the stablecoin um later on the podcast. Let me ask you something before we get to that. So why is it that if you’re a liquidity provider you default to uniswap as opposed to curve like why is it that? um. not the Jud that’s a wrong way to phrase it but basically is there is there a financial incentive for people who manage money on chain if you are like a van ek.

02:19.69 – Martin Krung
On it.

02:34.26 – Brian David Crane
Or a crypto hedge fund in some so some form or fashion is it. Do they make money if they yeah do they get to charge a management fee or so is there some benefit to why they would why they would park their excess liquidity or cash in a place like uniswap as opposed to curve.

Curve’s Approach to Liquidity Management

02:54.59 – Martin Krung
Ah, now it’s lost a little bit. You think yeah, that’s not how I feel if you would at this you know because I’m more like a retail I’m more coming from retail. Basically so I think the benefit is that. You don’t have to manage your liquidity Basically that’s the main benefit and it’s hard to manage completely right? You know if you see that option from vv 3 unisop v three. It’s not that high because people still open uni supp v two ports because yeah, you have to manage your positions all the time. Basically.

03:11.82 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, um.

03:26.92 – Martin Krung
And that’s it’s like it’s for prose. So that’s not the answer to your question. But if you look more sideways and yeah I think it’s the same at the end. It’s the same because what we see now you know there are a lot of um.

03:31.36 – Brian David Crane
I get it.

03:47.40 – Martin Krung
Applications built on managing rapidity positions basically and they all take a cut. So Even if they’re more or less successful. Some of them are more so less. They add complexity to the product basically but they also extract value so you have to pay them in Form. Basically. So this is like it’s a complex on top and it’s a competition out. There was like the most ah the best like liquidity management system for use of E three basically. And yeah, it’s like it’s ah it’s like endless.

04:25.14 – Brian David Crane
Yeah.

04:25.36 – Martin Krung
Competition is basic and you don’t have to do it with Calf. So it’s much more simple to use and also to do and it’s also if you look at Mainnet if you have to rebalance your position on yourself p three you produce any time you need like ah yeah, you pay for the rebalancing. And that’s not the case with gof Basic. So that’s it.

Evolution of Curve’s Business Development

04:47.91 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, so how did you get involved with curves like what is your? I kind of skipped right over this because we started talking about liquidity providing on these different dexes. But like yeah, what is your trajectory in terms of how you got into this business development role for curve.

04:53.45 – Martin Krung
Yeah. I’ve been a very early Ethereum user so I had like a multisar because I had like cash on chain and I had like to to deploy it. Basically it couldn’t be idle. So I just.

05:06.28 – Brian David Crane
Yep.

05:17.52 – Martin Krung
Tried out every product who was coming in a defa belt basically very early on so it’s like I’ve been an early pretty pride to to curve. So I got like the airdrop and then since then um was always like some kind of curve guy basically because.

Yeah, it’s like this good technology I got like you is for airdrop but it’s not the same. You know, always for the toquen itself. It’s like yeah okay, it’s like nothing happened with the top and a curve is very different. The toque is like a very deep part of our product suite basically.

05:42.78 – Brian David Crane
What can you do with it? yeah.

05:54.20 – Martin Krung
And it sounds like yeah, it’s a token who has as many properties basically but it’s like ah it’s like yeah it makes sense and it’s mostly used to to adjust the system and you get fees. You know too. So it’s that garment store.

06:12.19 – Brian David Crane
Um.

06:13.12 – Martin Krung
But we are not. We are not like a government. We are not a dao who does government like I’m on yeah, call it. We are like a parameter but Tao Basically we vote on parents you know and I think that’s Fine. You know, which’s just that mostly it’s writing on parayrameters On. Protocol. It’s not about coordination who is making what kind of contributions or like payment of Contributors. So it’s like yeah yeah, but baramdao basically and I think this is like a good thing to be basically and.

06:44.26 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, there’s a ring fence in a way around the dower. It’s limited in scope in terms of its um decisions.

06:50.94 – Martin Krung
It works. So yeah.

Yes, yeah, and so I yeah I was actually really proud I played around with all these protocols and so I got like a girl I was like a gulf guy because I got the air dog. Basically it is low. You know if you like the product and use it early on then. Then you and identify with the with with the product basically and it also locking locking up about vers of 2 You know I’ve blocked them up as V curve because at this time you couldn’t do like different than yeah, there was like no and. of Curf so it makes lawyers too because then you have the token locked up for 4 years and then yeah, your long-term incentive to to to help or to look what’s going is high basically but then I faced today I got like I was like a.

07:47.34 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, yeah, and.

07:53.41 – Martin Krung
And like a hobby for 10 years but then during the pandemic and coincidentally I left my former company and then I worked for different hours and then yeah ended up with Kafka right now.

08:07.91 – Brian David Crane
But you’re also involved with Aladdin Dower is that right.

08:09.80 – Martin Krung
No yeah I’ve been one of the first contributors to a and down I’m not anymore then it’s just that aedin dao had in the past they did like I they had a very different idea to make a product and I tried to add at this time.

08:14.64 – Brian David Crane
Okay.

08:27.10 – Martin Krung
And then yet it didn’t work out that you had or this time their idea didn’t work but like the farmer’s they just yeah, made a period basically and at this point I was like ah I Say. You have a certain energy to start new things and at this point it was like the energy was not there anymore. So I left and was looking for different things but they still I’m still very curious what they do and they yeah connected somehow.

08:56.16 – Brian David Crane
And do you in your yeah in your role for Bd for curve. Are you going to conferences and the reason I ask is because I know a fair number of people who work at centralized exchanges have big budgets.

09:00.31 – Martin Krung
Why?

09:12.35 – Brian David Crane
Go out for nice meals, throw parties. Um to the auspices of ah business development right? and I don’t necessarily so well I don’t know you well but I don’t see you doing that. Let’s say um on behalf of the curve.

09:13.27 – Martin Krung
1 trust.

Okay, what. No Curve as like a history if not showing up anywhere. Basically I guess and it’s it’s it’s it’s okay so yeah I think it’s odd about we have like product market fit and I just have been to the hereum syic conference like the last two days

09:30.14 – Brian David Crane
Yeah.

09:45.19 – Martin Krung
And I didn’t that time a lot of conferences last yet in my life basically and somehow what do you see? Yeah, some have to show up because it’s like they have to set a product. Basically they don’t have users to go there and say yeah, it’s me. It’s my project. That’s what you’re doing. But. Calf is like Innovate. It’s different. We found Product Market fit and we try to in a way for me, be route for calf means we talk to all the protocols and try to help them to integrate us or how they can use a space basically also like to. Project to have token or St Coins. We had them and yeah advise them how they should best use Curf Basic. So It’s much more business to business in a way. It’s not that we. We sell calves to create because most of the traffic anyway is over aggregate.

10:40.85 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, so let’s go on that because I’m curious when the volume or the traffic is coming from aggregators and when we say aggregators we mean somebody like matcha cow swap. Um. What are so yeah, like ah one inch I assume they’re they’re they hook into like an api in the backend of curve or how does an aggregator get um yeah, get tied in with curve or how does curve get tied in with one of these aggregators.

11:10.79 – Martin Krung
Yeah, I’m not too informed about the deep technical details but basically we have like and somehow they call and register that things show up.

11:24.49 – Brian David Crane
Okay.

11:26.32 – Martin Krung
And of course they can Outdo discovery. It’s done differently. It depends on the technology they use. You know some of them are like integrating them in, yeah to just see them pop up and integrate them. There. The issue is in a way more if we iterate on the model and we do you know from outside looks like every pool is like yeah. Like a stable swap but we have different versions of sta swap out there and then it also changed internally how you can calculate the best rate or how what I tried to do they tried to find out how the trade will be executed. If. It’s executed. You know? What’s the price? Basically so they need a pretty good model and how to calculate their price and if you change a little bit then this also changes so they need to and yeah, write an adopter or of your head and write it doctor that you can like see what’s going on. Basically that’s the.

12:18.65 – Brian David Crane
Yeah yeah I was sorry I had seen. Um, I think about Twitter several times.

12:20.10 – Martin Krung
Assault.

Curve’s Stability and Liquidity Solutions

12:27.96 – Brian David Crane
Requesting some of these aggregators to change which contracts or which pools they were referencing because when curve would iterate and release something new. The aggregators would still be hitting Yeah like either interfacing with old contracts or hitting old pools and actually the curve was losing volume relative to others.

12:35.80 – Martin Krung
Yeah, and.

12:46.90 – Brian David Crane
Dex is because these guys were using some kind of old tech. Let’s say is that right? yeah.

12:48.79 – Martin Krung
Yeah I think that’s like you know under the hood graff’s like a complex beast and things change him and so I guess it’s for every project who is like evolving the case that sometimes aka have like all the information use all the information. Maybe even not or like being incentivized to integrate to I don’t know you know on some layer two’s curf is there but we don’t have a lot of Tv. Yeah so it’s like I don’t that’s like not my expertise basically but be broke on this and we be like be. Like last few weeks we check things and see which are and included in which kind of aggregators and yeah and it’s also you know this bank part other parties that you also need like arbitrage shares to and this more like now the soft liquidation part of landing market.

13:31.66 – Brian David Crane
Can it.

13:43.32 – Martin Krung
Because this is done over arbitrage basically and this is like another market where we yeah, do work like in the background basically and that’s not very so.

The Role of Arbitrage in Curve’s Ecosystem

13:51.23 – Brian David Crane
Okay, yeah, can you? So can you explain that and what I mean why? Why does the curve need to be? Why does the curve need the arbitrage bots to enable or to. Substantiate the soft liquidation mechanism that’s in Llama with 2 l’s like how does that work and why is it important? yeah.

14:12.78 – Martin Krung
Yeah, yeah, the thing is yeah okay now it’s got maybe you have to explain a few things about you know the soft clickation mechanism in a way you can look at this. It’s used to cut off your st so you if you have a collateral. And you mean curve usd and you can set your own risk factor. Basically you can and give your collateral and then you can choose which is like the top and you get into soft location and what’s the lower bar you get into softation so you have a range. Basically. And what do you do then? it’s like theities is then like it’s like in bands it’s like it’s similar to is top 3 3 there like some bands that and all the liquidities like in in like place basically and it works like a stop lost. All. So this means the price. You have a price fit and if the price is thrown down then this like these bands like triggered or like open up for a trade. Basically so people can then think arbitrage about what they do because you have a collector like e in it and you draw a graph you set the e prices going down. So but.

15:17.32 – Brian David Crane
Um.

15:28.82 – Martin Krung
Softation says 1 position who is on the water. Basically this position is sold to cut your st so you are collaterally slowly solved to the curve. You steal you lent out basically but it’s still old by the by by the you don’t. Get it. It’s still like your position is slowly changing. It’s selling your id to cure sd internally basically and this based yeah yeah, it starts backing it by itself. So and.

15:52.17 – Brian David Crane
Yeah. Let me say one 1 thing on that real quick. So um I’m a user I have wrapped bitcoin (WBTC) I come to curve.

There’s a mint cap on there of let’s say 200000000 I don’t have it in front of me at the moment but that’s the maximum amount of um I want to say this correctly. That’s the maximum amount of crv usd that can be minted against that collateral if I understand yeah.

16:27.50 – Martin Krung
Yes, yeah.

16:30.89 – Brian David Crane
Okay, so I pledge my ah wrapped btc as collateral I take out a loan against it in Crv usd now that wrapped btc sits as collateral in these bands that you’re describing and so when sorry.

16:44.69 – Martin Krung
Innovating. Yes.

16:50.19 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, and so when ah when Btc or rap btc drops in price curve in the background goes and sells that band into a liquidity pool. That’s also on the curve . What is that? Liquidity pool is it cr v usd.

17:06.73 – Martin Krung
Yeah, it’s not like it’s directly connected there but the arbitrage shows come in because it’s not that it’s like not that it flows directly to the or the pole. The thing is it’s a system where we say you know it’s always with love.

17:09.40 – Brian David Crane
W Btc or what is the pool that holds it into.

17:25.89 – Martin Krung
Blockchain yeah, somebody has to make the trade. Basically so we say now. Okay, it’s underwater. So the position is like sold and there’s a discount on it so somebody arbitrarily can then buy the position basically buys the W Btc and says it on the open market. And no send graph of usd and then gets the W Ptc and then says it on the arc basically like this so it’s not you can use. It’s not that you have to use like the other hour pools you know you can just sell the w bdc to any place.

17:53.78 – Brian David Crane
Um.

18:02.63 – Martin Krung
Who takes it basically but you need to pay off your steam so it makes sense. Yeah, so it makes sense to use the am if they’re just if there you get the better paid price. But it’s possible to use your own chain all the way. You get a better price for your W Ptc then you ease you switch to another and.

18:04.84 – Brian David Crane
Which.

18:22.38 – Martin Krung
Save the car then buy a cup of your tea and yeah, that’s so yes, Yes, yeah, yeah, so this is like this just like ah it’s like a pool who is like it’s also a pool.

18:24.16 – Brian David Crane
Because you have to have you have to buy you have to buy the collateral in the curve usd it create it. It creates a demand side for Crv usd as well. Right? Yeah interesting. Okay.

18:41.88 – Martin Krung
Liquid tea in it and then it’s like and it’s like arbitraged Away. So then you are on that you are like so if the price is going down then you are in a softly cutaged position. But then it did Itredate. So if the otherwise round price is going up then. Things in all directions happen. Basically so you buy back Wbtc Withuff Sd or not your position is opened back basically and you lose part of you know this is like yeah you have to. Pay for it in the form that the examiner has to pay the cards and it needs to be incentivized to do it So you lose a little bit of fuel. And yeah, if you collectal Basically so it’s not them and then at the end you know if you really go all bands of salt then there’s like a.

19:25.76 – Brian David Crane
Yeah.

19:32.23 – Martin Krung
How thetation then your collection really gone but we didn’t see many holiday occasions because you’re like in up Market. So It works quite Well, you Seecis going into a softic quotation then recall from it and then yeah then however it is you know you can draw then more or you can. Yeah, change. But what you want to do at this point So It’s like ah it works quite well there a lot a lot of soft liquidation a half viation most are fortifications in the price cost.

20:01.12 – Brian David Crane
And I think what’s interesting to me that you said is that the protocol curve at the end of the day like it has its loan of Crv usd repaid so like whether it’s an arbitrage bot or some other mechanism. It is repay like every time. You’re going through these different bands. curve as a protocol is getting c or v usd. It’s like it’s not getting paid in Usdt Usdc anything else is getting paid in crvusd so that at the end of the day. It’s. You know its loan book is healthy and that it was like you can’t take out an over sorry it has to be an over collateralized loan. you can, you know, like the protocol, the risk I think to curve in making these loans if you want to talk about peg keepers as well. We can get into that but like is the. That the value of c r v usd drops below $1 or you know it that it breaks peg because that’s that’s that’s that’s that’s the second part like yeah it like it can get paid back in cvusc yes, sorry, go ahead.

21:01.10 – Martin Krung
Yeah, yeah, that’s the same one. Yeah now you talk about how we stabilize the and yeah, the bag for curfews Dba this lucky.

Innovative Approaches to Crypto Stability and Growth

21:10.30 – Brian David Crane
The peg. Yeah, so.

21:16.71 – Martin Krung
Yeah, it’s just too close that we now use the same mechanism. It’s now used also in the landing markets. The soft-ish mechanism is also used in the landing markets. It’s just the same mechanism used on Curves This is also used in the landing markets. The curve landing marked basically and.

21:24.23 – Brian David Crane
But

21:35.50 – Martin Krung
Think it’s good but it’s a very good product. Basically it’s like yeah people yeah, nobody wants to get Literate. Basically so it’s ah it’s it’s like you have more time to direct. That’s one side you can look at this. You usually have more time to wreck.

21:51.67 – Brian David Crane
Um.

21:53.68 – Martin Krung
But you also can like set your you can go quite close to the price who is there now and just say the end up assumption. You say if you want to drop below two thousand us dollars you said you want this deep and then you don’t have to vary. Except okay, yeah, if like the market turns completely then maybe ah, you have the problem then but in a way in the cycl market crypto normally behaves so it’s quite yeah, it’s it’s it’s a good product for sure, an upcoming price going up and. Going down. Yeah Bbc you know it’s just the yeah, it’s like we just started in the bear mark basically and now we received its performance if price comes down this cycle down but that’s not the issue. It’s not to show performance. It just means you mind how people use it all.

How good it is for the average person to choose basic. It’s debizing itself. So this is also made if you won’t talk about Cur St it like yeah it stabilizes itself because it’s like the demand or it’s priced. So the fee on the.

22:51.80 – Brian David Crane
Got it? Yeah, so.

23:09.77 – Martin Krung
Mining of us st the fee we take is depending on the price of first T Basically so if there’s like an overpack then we’re going to raise the so there’s like too much supply. Basically then to make it like and.

I switch it and run Dis so if my lower back is’ like 2 It’s too coffee tea like and there’s too much now you know because people want to have more coffee tea and then then then the the.

23:30.42 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, go ahead. It’s above peg.

23:45.70 – Martin Krung
The fees adjusted and the fees adjusted on the oncuff 2 is adjusted i’m.

Downloads. Yeah now I’m not sure saying I’m always strange. It’s a very simple, basic gift but I can just never never have it in my mind like this um like.

24:04.83 – Brian David Crane
Well I think the beauty of it. Well I think the beauty of it from the outside looking in is only that the mouse trap is such that um the interest rates that are charged. On the loan are dictated by ah you know demand well demand for that particular I think it’s demand by for that asset like if you’re pledging wbtc or if you pledge state stated EthSTETH you have different interest rates on a collateral by Collateral basis.

24:39.42 – Martin Krung
Yeah, but this is very I don’t know how they are checked. Now it shouldn’t be. They should have the same more or less basically because it’s just what we do now if you make and.

24:39.63 – Brian David Crane
From what I saw , no, that’s incorrect.

24:58.47 – Martin Krung
If fees are going up. People are incentivized to buy back curfews. Basically so yeah now I got if it’s an underpack then we do this, You know if the price went down the curves st is getting too cheap. Basically then the rates going up on T ah on on collateral. Basically.

25:12.50 – Brian David Crane
Okay.

25:18.45 – Martin Krung
Because then you’re incentivized to buy back Cursd Cover seems cheap. It’s under $1 so you buy it back and pay back your loan. This is the mechanism and all the way around if there’s an outpack then we generate and that’s that that the pack keeps comes into play then we generate like Curf Usd inject Cheap. Injecting it into the pack keeps in a way like minting like cur usd like ah I always say like it’s like unpacked, but it’s not Unpacked. It’s not really unbacked if you look at the size of the collector CyrUs has or the Babytc and all the things that he had if you add it Up. It’s not ubank. But it’s in the sense arm back that we open up the buffer and feel it of your see and this cut of C is just generated from the protocol basically and it fills into the pools and then it because we add Curd C on one side and the CurC is like his overpacked tool like. As an example, you inject more Cute Sad so you get back into balance and the price goes down of curfews and no yeah Sco of Curfew St basic. That’s the base. Yeah se and the adjustment is.

26:27.74 – Brian David Crane
Relative to the usdt. Yeah yeah, okay.

26:33.13 – Martin Krung
The beauty of this system is that on shrinking supply the yield on on the on on the on on your col collector is going up is like so if the if the supply shrinks you have a underback then the yell of The. The supply is going up so we make more money. Strangely if the supplies are sinking We are northy on a supply is shrinking because then you have restor rate to people getting.

27:11.30 – Martin Krung
Buy like the supply and payback debt basically and this is like this like that twist this like Michael’s idea basically it’s very different that a normal economic system works a normal economic system if I have inflation or do you then do you raise the rate.

27:30.83 – Brian David Crane
To try to make the money more expensive. Let’s say yeah.

Community Engagement and Decentralization at Curve

27:30.87 – Martin Krung
Yeah to trade the money not expensive and this is like it’s like Yeah it’s like switched Basically so it’s very interesting to see you now. Of course we tried to grow so the rate is going up if we grow fast the rate is going down.

27:39.46 – Brian David Crane
Yeah.

27:50.85 – Martin Krung
If this live graph Yourd is growing fast Redis is going down basically little be Maybe you don’t see it you know because like the markets actually itself place into these two you know now it’s just yeah, everyone wants to go along So there’s a lot of demand basically but Interior theory. So.

27:51.26 – Brian David Crane
And

28:09.61 – Martin Krung
If There’s a lot of demand then and yeah, then the rates went down sounds strange but that’s okay so we will see if you are able to grow a lot if we see how then yeah if you go in a scenario about the market shrinking Again, we see how much fee we then. But the interesting side of this is antithetical in a way so it’s possible that we make a lot of fees if we go in a bad market basically because then this is less in Demand we have to make.

We have to say keep the land and fees we take high on the collector to pressure out. Basically they yet incentivize people to bike off your Seafo market and pay back. There.

29:03.90 – Brian David Crane
Keep yeah, keep their loan, keep their loan healthy.

29:06.11 – Martin Krung
So it’s like yeah this is like I think that’s that it’s a very smart system basically because it’s like long term you know it’s not not just everything that curves us like long term. We don’t like you, yeah that’s like.

Gluing into the curve. It’s also glued in into toolomics you know because you look at theomics there’s this halfenning of curve and these and half halfening it’s like once a year the supplies like going down and it’s also like quite long term.

29:31.67 – Brian David Crane
Just like bitcoin happening. Yep. Yeah I think it’s a 3 I think it’s a three hundred year mint cycle or something. It’s like it’s pretty far out.

29:44.15 – Martin Krung
Basically yeah, may they be now keeping protected but united. Yeah, you want to talk now we talk really about technology or like how folks but you had like other topics to bring the more like.

29:52.47 – Brian David Crane
Good start.

Yeah, yeah, well there. Well there’s one. There’s 1 thing I did want to say in what you were saying earlier. So I watched ah Michael on um I think it was the unstable summit he was being interviewed for. We’re talking about Michael ah igarov who’s the founder of ah curve finance. And he was the interviewer was asking him about a curse in these rates and he said it’s he said what happens in the traditional finance sector is you have the borrow rate that. The federal reserve dictates down to the member banks and he said in this lending market instead. What happens is if you actually like the lending rate that these banks demand. So. It’s like that. It actually goes and likes up. Um. It goes up for lack of a better way. It’s not that it’s not that um curve finance is the fed. It’s more that like it’s ah the market is setting the rate at which it will borrow from the curve with respect to these different collateral ah collateral types basically or like assets and um and whereas if it’s the federal reserve they say to the member banks. you need to raise or how do they dict it they set the federal funds rate like from a top-down perspective so he had flipped it. Um and it was a.

31:24.67 – Martin Krung
Yes, and yeah.

31:29.30 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, yeah, and it it So again it introduces market forces to allow that interest rate to actually be set at a natural or let’s say an equilibrium. And yeah, okay, anyways, we can nerd out shift something that is a little.

31:37.20 – Martin Krung
Yeah, exactly. Um. Yeah, it’s interesting. Yeah, it’s very interesting to yeah this is one of his intentions. Basically it’s not seen by many people you know in a way because many think it’s just about yeah mini of state and speculation and.

31:53.96 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, yeah.

32:02.16 – Martin Krung
Cuffy steel. Whatever you do, you don’t go long but behind is like a bigger just a bigger experiment base.

32:04.82 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, yeah, he hit Well he hit it when you and I spoke before the podcast like I had. I have always kind of marveled at curves. Ah.

Penchant for game theory in terms of figuring out how to get people’s incentives into alignment I mean V E C R V is an example that Convex is an example that a lot of it is game Theory Deep game theory in terms of trying to figure out. How do you convince me? And not coerce like legitimately convince somebody to take the outcome or take the action you would like them to take because it’s in their own Best interest but it’s a lot of different competitive parties and you’re trying to bring them into a marketplace and have it be relatively harmonious when I say the marketplace I mean you know the the market for.

32:36.11 – Martin Krung
Um.

32:53.34 – Brian David Crane
Ah, curve as a token crv and then out of that comes things like governance things like cash flow things like gauge weights and um and and and voting and yeah, So anyways, let’s shift briefly on this and go. You want to talk about ve curve as a governance model and some of the um changes that have taken place following the launch of the curve as you’ve seen it in the ecosystem in general.

Strategic Partnerships and Expanding Curve’s Ecosystem

33:22.17 – Martin Krung
Beach change. We didn’t change anything. Basically maybe I don’t know but beating up. It’s still the same now. It’s like that.

33:24.58 – Brian David Crane
No, I mean these iterations the solidly forks or the like aerodrome or velodrome or you know pancake swap has now adopted a ah ve cake. ah.

33:44.25 – Martin Krung
Ah you mean talk to the atomic model that it’s copied many times. Basically yeah.

33:49.38 – Brian David Crane
Yes, because curve and curve curve was in my opinion the pioneer of this and now like a lot of things in defi. It gets copied very quickly and iterated on and yeah.

33:58.55 – Martin Krung
Yeah, golf is clearly the pioneer but I don’t think it’s funny. That’s like my personal opinion. I know I didn’t never out like I think it’s not even I’m not sure if it’s really done on purpose. Maybe it’s just coincidence because in a way. 1 issue. It solves the naked token if you trade the naked token curve. There’s no revenue shell in curve token but only on v curve and it solves like an issue that so only unt transferable.

Weakness is like security in a way because there’s a dividend at top but V of itself. It’s like it hasn’t governments. Not right. There’s no and yeah, you don’t earn a fee for it. So It’s a very elegant solution to this problem. Basically so. I Guess that’s that’s one of the drivers in behind not not about Okay, how and other things of course then if you think it is switched How can I make a token who doesn’t have this property and then you come to this solution then you then you see okay there there are many other properties who’s like beneficial of this because.

34:56.49 – Brian David Crane
Game theory.

35:15.53 – Martin Krung
People who are more aligned with your values or with your vision. They are ready to lock it up for 4 years. All they just want so and you give them like the government’s right? and you give them like revenue space and dollars don’t get revenue but it sort of like a. An issue who is like really yeah, it’s an issue you make a token then it has all these characteristics and you legal bla Blah If You do it like this I don’t know the legal standpoint or to we curve but at the end it’s like it changed it changed the it changed the token in a way.

35:42.85 – Brian David Crane
It sidesteps it.

35:51.99 – Martin Krung
And of course resulting is the long-term incentive who’s like yeah you like that too. So it’s beneficial on several layers. So but.

35:59.37 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, it’s game theory twice in 2 different instances one with ve curve versus Crv and also with cr v versus other stable coins because a lot of the attack vectors for. Stable coins is a bank. They have taken deposits whether it’s a tether circle. and now they have issued this ah almost like a deposit receipt on chain and curve says well, what’s to me I’m paraphrasing but curve says okay, cool like what’s the what’s the important part. Of the stablecoin which is you actually want to know that it’s that is useful as a unit of measure or transfer of value and not that like okay cool they took other assets Wbtc Staked Eth other things that um. There’s no bank. That’s like going to say okay, cool. It’s like a way to get ah you get to the stablecoin without necessarily needing to compete head-on with like ah, a tether or or a circle and then and need to swim in those um regulatory.

37:04.59 – Martin Krung
Yeah, for me this love is like a side effect basically for me’s much more that you know if you look at money or what money is so you know.

37:05.81 – Brian David Crane
Waters. Let’s say I don’t know how to put it. You know what? I mean. Okay.

37:24.41 – Martin Krung
So If you make a stable bitcoin Any stableableco. How do you get to get it adopted basically and there’s like maybe I guess it’s like strangely there’s like another stage in crypto which I call like it is a means of Speculation. So in crypto you can have a stcon and just to. Purely speculate on it. It’s a cash which is like speculative properties and every new stay time almost them if it’s not fully back goes to this stage of yeah people just buy to farm other the tokens are your to project to I Guess N k.

Prisma and it’s like a perfect example because there you generate and headka a stacey card and then you farm their Prisma toque and you sell it on the market but the crash is at some point.

38:11.72 – Brian David Crane
Yep.

38:20.50 – Martin Krung
What’s going to happen? If you lose the speculative part of it. So I think that’s different encrypto than in other in traditional market care. She is not speculative as but in crypto clearly so this like the first stage everyone makes a new. Ah, stevicon and then it’s like ah the stage of a speculative asset. Everyone uses it to farm and make money but it ‘s completely fine because that’s how you get people interested in your project. But then you go to the second stage of money or quality of money then you say it’s like a means of exchange so you have like the dollar. Is like the best means of exchanging this advice to adopt it basically so and this is like if you are like ah a dex like us then and it’s yeah, it’s an expv exchange. So if we own our own dollar. We can make it the best means of exchange in our exchange. Basically.

And then it gets a property. It was like yeah, it’s not only the value it has I it has a premium on top basic it. It’s Usability basically and then the next stage you want to be a star value. That’s like the anchor you know that’s like some currency R Star value.

39:28.10 – Brian David Crane
Yeah.

39:38.42 – Martin Krung
Ah, the best off value I live in Switzerland is one of the best off values you can have. It’s better than that. Even like the US dollar risk so this is the property you’re going to have but the strange thing is you think about property store value. You can’t force say okay, the US maybe can force dominance to the world but you can’t force it on money. It’s about the quality of the money or the quality of the state bitcoin in our thing mitch to months. Yeah, for me, the quality is in the pack. You know if it’s. Very stable this stavis in this position Stavis. The colorized dollar was very close to the back. They smashed the quality of this and um dollar basically so it’s a penalty sign. It’s the best.

Store value maybe is the one who can really keep the pack very close. Maybe some people may be thinking in that direction for me. It’s much more. Okay, you make a trade and you use curd u sd and you buy some assets bears the point where you say now just hold curfews stbi out like ah. Yeah, going to like ah another stateable car who was like who’s fully backed or so and you achieved this by giving cursed the property that you can be yeah used and you can use it and buy all the for so all the stable cards if you need so get some kind of reserve asset and I guess. Graph is like a unique position because we are Alan. You have now curf usd and if you see we clearly tried to open many ports with graph usd basically because that’s our blood and we make money on these tools. You know if a graph is adopted. We make more fees we make more fees on. Coffee still in on trading fees guests. It’s quite a line. Basically this is always the reason why you want to say you wanted the next goal you want to achieve is’ like you want to slow down your devcoin. You don’t want that everyone can just throw it on the market and innovate.

41:32.48 – Brian David Crane
Right now. Yeah.

41:49.72 – Martin Krung
And this is like softcuation is like the perfect place to do it because in a softutation mode. You’re kind of yeah, it’s like stuck. Basically so it’s not so and even if you’re not stuck. It’s just slowed down the velocity of the curve. You still slow down and I think this is like.

It’s important because blockchains are very quick systems. Wow it’s very fast basically and sometimes you see shocks and if you see shocks and it’s always about how fast can I get the money out and create a background situation. People are like in panic and won’t go out and many times the system stabilizes itself after some time but if the time is very short and yeah, you have a bankruptcy and then you’re done Basically so if you achieve to slow down your system by giving additional property to it. 2 basically now Chris Cal sees that you can’t flow out that fast you stabilize the system and the chance is relatively high if there is an incident who can be externally. You know you don’t know it can be It can be externally how whatever happens you know you never know for care off. It’s. If you know, things can happen. You also in government some if you give governments fights and you have a problem you’re not able to act anymore on then you have a crisis and if people if then people are able to make. The system fast you collapsing your chance of coll collapsing getting damage is high so it’s good if you’ are able to slow the moiety down of your curve or your like basic fast curve u sd it’s not that we want to lock in people and not giving their back their the money but one of that is that.

Yeah, you slow it down because then it’s stuck basically in different places and then it doesn’t flow out so fast. So it stabilizes itself or that’s the one of the ideas that if there’s a shockque then things happen but I experience it many times you know if you I like and the and. So up to deeppa on the weekend I was panicking too. You know afterwards if they always have to feel why I’ve been so Star Stupid. You know I didn’t lose money I didn’t lose money basically but maybe a little bit but I also traded all this week I was affected by this even if I know that. If you think about circles it can Yeah, it’s like guess it’s a serious business I Guess you know nobody knows what’s the background. So ah, but it’s a high quality Business. So The idea that it really just poof goes away. It’s like yeah, it’s eration and basically.

44:25.61 – Brian David Crane
Yeah.

44:36.73 – Martin Krung
But this weekend everyone buried me. I panic 2 and like so and then on Monday yeah, it was like oh and then it was repacked but it shows exactly what’s happened sometime. He said people go in panic mode and it’s so kind of collective.

44:54.72 – Brian David Crane
Psychosis like it’s like a yeah, it’s It’s a madness of the crowds. Yeah.

44:55.51 – Martin Krung
Yeah, psychosis in a way. Yeah, and if you get hit by this and some protocols have been hit in the past by this or will maybe sea field in the future protocol who get hit by buddies. Even if you have like you would say a. Ah, product to call or like a product we dox. Well yeah, you have problems, you have reputation damage and or that space.

45:16.55 – Brian David Crane
So yeah, and I and but I also I Also think that with that with the softly quotations which is. The fact that the protocol in this case, curve doesn’t have to go out and market sell it. The assets to be able to eat and like the market dump them. Let’s say in order to be able to cover the required collateral to make the loan hole. Um. Also helps slow down in a different way this sort of like cascading um cascading liquidations. Yeah if it stops it stops a bear. well it stops a bank run and in ah in a mathematical or at least in a like ah like a logical or a levered way. You know.

45:57.20 – Martin Krung
Yeah, yes, yeah, exactly.

It’s on. But yeah I agree but it’s like that’s true. It’s just softened. Basically yeah.

46:23.21 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, but it’s important because if that um if wrapped bitcoin was gold and all the central banks went out and said we need to sell our gold all at once and they were all selling at the same price like that market can go. Can dry up or go to 0 you know like there’s no buyers or or the buyer pool is so limited that they just can’t handle the demand of ah on the sell side. But anyways, we’re super in the weeds. Let me shift and just go okay, cool. So like 1 of the things on the curve that’s being discussed you and I talked about before the call is.

46:49.20 – Martin Krung
It started.

46:56.75 – Brian David Crane
Shifting the fee token that’s paid to ve curve um holders to CRVUsd and away from three curves. Why would that be done or what’s the benefit to doing that.

47:05.45 – Martin Krung
Are you? Yeah, it’s also so but 1 thing it makes sense because some of you know it just makes sense our own us dollar of us should be if this as a feed is like the first thing. Secondly, it’s another supply thing. Basically you know because. I know I didn’t withdraw my fee. It’s like a half a year baby on week week kind of locked up. I have it so it’s not a lot so I don’t do it just sitting here. Basically so that’s in all supply think and the other thing is that.

47:35.70 – Brian David Crane
Are.

47:44.78 – Martin Krung
I’m not sure right now. But I guess Curfew SD is mostly if you look at all the pools. Maybe it’s the most easy token to use to sell to all the correct networks. Basically so if you say every token I have has also like a curfew Steep pool. Most of them. It’s also from the selling conversion to it’s like an easier place to do basically because then you can do it like internally but on the other hand it’s not easy to implement. You know it’s not because.

48:16.99 – Brian David Crane
But what is it?

48:21.45 – Martin Krung
How we collect fees. It’s like somehow it’s complicated. It’s not complicated but feed generation is different on different pools and we have to convert this to the graph you see on out of 3 pools and.

Have to change internet things to do this. So this is why it’s not like I just can’t just turn it on. Basically that’s why it takes time.

48:48.15 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, yeah let’s explain that just a bit so let’s assume you’ve got um e and stacked teeth as 1 pool and somebody trades from eth to staked eth inside of that pool on a curve. They pay the fee token. What would be the fee token in that pool and then what does the curve do with that fee token to then get it currently into three curves like it has to sell that fee token and like how it gets from.

49:17.70 – Martin Krung
It’s different. I don’t know all the details but there’s like I do but I know it’s stable for and we take one side of the trade so you get the naked token basic as fee. I think it depends on how we get both but it depends on the side of the trade. Taken 1 side of fees accrued over not so it should be all time crued on the same same value on both sides basically more or less but we have the na token then on. Although I think on cryptowall the fees are taken us as a liquidity pool toque basically.

49:42.60 – Brian David Crane
Okay. All 3 Yeah, okay yeah.

49:53.74 – Martin Krung
So you get a share of the liquidity pool now. no no no god it depends on Cryposop. You get the liquidity pool token so you have to liquid put the token which you have to split up then and sell basic it just once that is more basic but then other polls. On stawap they just yeah, just you get the naked token and then Show I think he cruises in the pool and then we can withdraw to the pool and do conversation or convert it to 3 three-po assets basically.

50:25.38 – Brian David Crane
And what and what would be back? Yeah, as opposed to converting it to three CRV or 3 pool assets in order to pay out as ah for the fee. What what? what backs that CRVUsd like if it’s ah you know you’ve collected it.

50:35.57 – Martin Krung
Yeah again.

50:44.20 – Brian David Crane
It’s a fee that needs to be paid out to ve cr v but what backs that CRVUsd as a um like where it where did it? How did it come into existence you know, like there’s no, there was no.

50:56.76 – Martin Krung
Yeah I guess we view we hear you buy them so how so you sell if you say the E exam we have now this E and then we.

51:03.18 – Brian David Crane
Okay. Yeah.

51:13.48 – Martin Krung
I don’t know how trade works but in a way it should work that you sell 3 parts of it and to die one part to usdc it all the onto Usdt and then you add liquidity to the pool at the end of the process.

51:19.12 – Brian David Crane
Yeah.

Got it? Okay, so it’s always creating demand. Well it’s creating. It’s creating a demand side for CRV use in order to get the token to then pay it out to a yeah.

51:32.30 – Martin Krung
So it’s like.

Yeah, yeah, it’s in great demand. yeah, in a way. Yes, and yeah, that’s 2 so that’s another benefit beneficial point it creates demand side for coffee d if he would use cal two c d but now it creates demand sign for the free pool and.

51:54.53 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, okay, all right, all right? and what.

51:56.11 – Martin Krung
Basically like so if that the thing is more if you collect dust you know that the issue more an E is easy. But if you are like in a layer tool chain and there somebody opens up. A quite liquid token and comparing it to another token is not very liquid and yeah, it’s not not so easy to do it basically because we never can touch the facts. You know we have to do it decentralized So It’s like ah yeah.

52:23.28 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, but then you’ve collected fees into ill liquid tokens and the dao has to sell both of those ill liquid qui tokens to get them back to a well the 3 curve let’s say even if it’s on a layer 2 Yeah yeah.

52:29.20 – Martin Krung
Yeah, 15. Yeah, it’s not a non brain. It’s like some you need a good system beyond to be able to execute it in a good way and he needs coordination and you have to go to main at the end. Basically.

54:52.26 – Brian David Crane
one of the questions I’d asked you in the lead up to the show was you know. I’ve framed it as the challenges which curve has faced in terms of educating the larger defi community about its offerings. and what curve you know the liquidity providers and Crv bag holders can do to help like how do how does.

You know how? How do you multiply Martin’s efforts one ah hundred x in the sense of and let me frame this in a less and ah in ah in a less esoteric way. So I see Curve as a group of very talented people.

55:25.47 – Martin Krung
Yeah.

55:37.44 – Brian David Crane
Engineers and sort of like the product speaks for itself as far as it being self-evident that it’s good and it doesn’t have um like a ton of marketing hype behind it actually like kind of you know, doesn’t want the hype and so you know.

How does somebody who wants a curve to succeed help it without pissing off or the um or violating its core principles of cool like first and foremost we are physicists and math wizards and um. You know like we’re incredibly we build incredibly good software and the market will recognize it at some point you know like it. It will get around to it.

56:24.58 – Martin Krung
Yeah, they’re just very engineer even ah, that’s how I name it so we are very engineering in a way and if you ask you know and also how I focus mostly on talking to all the protocols. So the questions. Yeah, very much.

56:42.39 – Martin Krung
Now you speak about small investors. Maybe you can name it. You know how they redate How can they help us or what’s what they can do I think best they can do is say our technology in a way if they’re able to you know anyway because.

56:44.39 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, Retail let’s say.

57:01.26 – Martin Krung
This means if they see some other projects who try to achieve things which either could be built on a curve or other way or they could use a good like place for Stish Asset or they have an establishment as which would be and. Benefit from curves like yeah technology I guess and most of these people you described are like they’re not like investors they’re like part of the community. Basically so they want to have pastco. Yeah so I guess this is the that The yeah.

57:34.60 – Brian David Crane
They’re fans.

57:40.10 – Martin Krung
Best way It’s not about Okay, we are not against people sharing our product approach but protocol or the project etc because we like good products but it’s not that yeah I think it’s it sounds like.

57:42.30 – Brian David Crane
Yeah.

57:59.24 – Martin Krung
Because everyone wants to see more value or more recognition of the value in the token now and on the curve. But somehow I guess it also has a bit to do with the market cycle or how these cycles work you know in a way you like?? Yeah yeah, all protocol and and the. I Say we have a good story and and we have a good product but it’s like the illusions people can have. It’s like being reduced by things. Yeah in a way. Yeah, That’s only one thing.

58:29.67 – BBrian David Crane
The fact that it’s actually out in the marketplace. Sorry, yeah.

58:37.73 – Martin Krung
That’s the only thing basically because yeah, cryptoism market was filled with narratives and stories people tell people. The Communities tell each of these stories like stories and then you have like yeah you imagine like this is like the next big thing and then yeah you buy the token. And if fits Yeah, then it’s like yeah you make money ah until the story doesn’t add up and then yeah, the price like gone off to talk but it’s it’s ah it’s an interesting force but we are not affected but it’s anymore in a way.

58:57.39 – Brian David Crane
You wrote about this in your blog. Yeah, that’s a lot of what.

59:15.86 – Martin Krung
In a way. Yeah I think we may be too serious for this kind of thing. You can also calculate too many things. You know if you see a just check before talks about how much fees you get on the locked curve in sterco and it’s like 30% like I don’t know. Which time scale may be last week so it’s a lot. You know it’s a really good shell if you imagine if a sherry pace itself in 3 years you can buy the same amount. So it’s like it tastes like ah how you know how to jump.

59:51.30 – Brian David Crane
It’s a good investment. Yeah like and in the threadfin world would be an excellent investment. Yeah, 3 3 x on. Ah.

59:52.60 – Martin Krung
Yeah, you can buy the new compiled tab and it’s like 3 multiply you can have it back you invest and pay the price now that’s crazy low. You know van is really crazy basic and it’s ah yeah, but you see you know what? It’s just my perspective. You also have a limited amount of money to deploy or mindset. You know I’m part of this market too. So if you have a bitcoin you want to invest in, should you invest in something that may give you like a fivefold or twofold in the next year or should you like to invest and the calf can talk ken. Maybe. I guess it will make this jump too. But then if you think it is cash flow assets then you maybe think. Okay, yeah I buy it as a regulated asset. It’s better maybe because maybe it makes a 5 x and. s I think it’s very possible that calf makes perfectex tense too. But it’s just another way of thinking you know this. Why if you have a cash flow then people look much closer at this as like a stock bond. Basically.

01:01:03.18 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, they they but they apply traditional um like a traditional financial valuation or or like they they understand like there’s a certain amount of cash flow. So therefore you know using discounted Cash flow Modeling I should be able to project the.

01:01:05.14 – Martin Krung
Yeah.

01:01:16.40 – Martin Krung
Yeah I think.

01:01:18.12 – Brian David Crane
You know what? what? this asset’s worth to me whereas with my meme coin. You know it’s skies the limit and there is ah it’s it’s strictly narrative- based and there’s no, there’s there’s there’s nobody who can disagree with what I think it’s worth as a meme coin or as a.

01:01:29.26 – Martin Krung
Yeah.

01:01:37.71 – Brian David Crane
Like some of the tokens that just launch because nobody can say what the heck like, well you think it’s worth one. I think it’s worth 10 and the market will also decide on that but it’s not based on financial. Um. Calculations. It’s based around who can tell the story better or who can be the louder Teller of the story on social media or on certain channels right? and so I think curve has decided just not to play that game which is part of the reason why I think people who get involved. In the ecosystem, understand what the product’s doing, understand how it works, and how it fits together. They tend to stick because they see the elegance of it and appreciate it from an engineering standpoint because you and I both have a software development background and um and you start to appreciate it. Yeah there’s a lot.

01:02:19.11 – Martin Krung
Um.

01:02:24.56 – Martin Krung
Yeah, that yeah, that’s the underrated force of calf because it is really stlar engineering you know in a way as an engineer if you see this, you think okay this like a different piece. Basically.

01:02:26.70 – Brian David Crane
There’s a lot here and there’s also a lot of thought that’s gone into it and it’s very ah, carefully constructed.

01:02:44.46 – Martin Krung
And you are unattracted by this, you know because it’s it’s It’s not like it’s as it’s it’s as complicated as it has to be.. It’s not over engineered or it’s like yeah, that’s how it should be and if you think I did think a lot about St Bitcoins and how you can make St bitcoins. Also like in a maybe more archistic ways and so and so and and these are funny things but I could never implement this kind of money I have been thinking of basically and if you look at the solutions who yeah are mostly mit is guy who was like yeah, he’s like the visit of this like doing this.

01:03:23.54 – Brian David Crane
Karma.

01:03:23.94 – Martin Krung
I Like the the lead thinker of this and he’s able to implement this and this is really yeah, it’s a big motivation for myself. You know to be part of this because it’s not only thinking one thing is easy. You know you so you see Also if you look at stabilizing stablecoins. If you say if you look at the fiat how we print like non-back graph Ussd and this answer is not like not not matching handedly but it’s like he’s like the I think the best answer at this point of the problem basically and I don’t know don’t I’m not sure you can like iterate on this. But if you look at Design Space. You really are limited to design space sometimes. It’s some point design space. It’s just not. Yeah you can put a lot of effort into finishing it. But it doesn’t get any better. It’s only a little bit and nobody cares and if you look now if you look at softation how this works for Me. It’s like yeah.

If You understand how it works then it’s like okay this is obviously a solution for a problem that has existed for a long time and the solution itself. It’s. You know the idea that you sell continuously you sell part of the collector to the banking Token. So. It’s like yeah soft said it’s not I don’t know if the idea is new but who can implement this so you need someone who can think it and implement and it is the guy.

01:04:51.00 – Brian David Crane
Incredible. Yeah, no incredible.

01:04:54.22 – Martin Krung
This is not very common in ah how you say if you look at innovations mostly driven by people. Yeah well at some point and are able to achieve things which all people can do.

01:05:11.74 – Brian David Crane
Yep.

01:05:11.89 – Martin Krung
And of course you need the right timing and all things. But it’s like ah so it’s not so yeah, it needs a lot of you know it doesn’t It’s not that you need to be genius this like goes this direction. It’s not that you need to be changed but you need the right setting for your ideas. Basically from each crypto or exchange or all this technology. It’s like he fits his mindset on his way of thinking so he can manifest in this technology I get maybe in other other times he would yeah wouldn’t be. That piece So the project now has manifested itself because then he would have another life but it’s like the perfect combination his mind did things about how he thinks about money or if you say he turns upside down.

01:06:00.45 – Brian David Crane
Sandbox.

01:06:07.82 – Martin Krung
Like ah yeah, it fits crypto in a way and I don’t know if there are many files like it Basically so and I’m quite yeah, just on of.

01:06:16.18 – Brian David Crane
Do you maybe have the last question to be respectful of your time? Do you worry about it? key man risk with Mitch.

01:06:27.57 – Martin Krung
I’m not because if you see you know vvtv are every team like to iterate on the on the on the just cheap thumbs in on top basically on the innovation and be like the first more and this is only one way to win for any. Any product or market. So if you think yeah, you have this kind of frisk then I guess there’s so many that’s a beauty of having product market fit. You know if you have product marketing then there are many ways you can develop your products. And it’s only now it’s very based on technology but Curf could also take different directions. So if he would have less engineering power basically or less like how we say like and this kind of insight and bring it to the world power meches or.

01:07:14.95 – Brian David Crane
Defensibility.

01:07:20.21 – Martin Krung
All very good engineers of course and some of them have other ideas who are also like variables maybe not in Interaction. He is like thinking but in other directions. So It’s not. I don’t think it exists in the way because that the system itself is independent of. Yeah, it’s it’s it’s be in this case, we are like a real yeah real Doubt. It’s not that yeah it’s decentralized and somebody would just or V on it would just change it basically but it has of course times.

01:07:43.86 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, it’s decentralized at that level.

Yeah, I would love to meet Michael one day. I admire him from afar what he’s yeah what he’s been able to accomplish and also the talented people yourself included that he’s been able to gather into the um. Vortex that is curved right? and the ecosystem that’s developed around the curve : the flywheel convex st-dow fracs clever Aladdin Doo these different abstractions on top of what you know the liquidity center that curve offers.

01:08:30.10 – Martin Krung
Yeah, and I guess yeah, you’re also very open. You know people. Yeah, that should be like the possibility of the fine way I think we keep that up. You know you can build on us and we will try to help you basically and. I See you know if you think how it’s not about I mean from a culture standpoint if you look at how unis about how they they they how they think their des. Basically yeah, just it’s different. They oh. Okay, they make their own frontend and take a cut in the fees as like a company you can do this. That’s fine, but somehow yeah we think differently. We think we meet very partners ourselves outside who try to multiply. Us Basically and I guess that’s that’s ah, that’s ah yet it’s much more collaborative. Basically it’s not about it’s It’s just a different way of thinking I guess.

01:09:37.55 – Brian David Crane
Well I think there’s also again I’ll talk about this from like an attack vector but uniswap based on the US founders. subject to Scc Regulation you have you know swiss stake. The holding company for the intellectual property curve Michael’s Russian I think in terms of a passport lives in Switzerland and I think that also goes ahead.

01:10:02.38 – Martin Krung
he exhaust is like yeah he’s hes he’s he’s australian but he’s like he grew up in Russia.

01:10:13.45 – Brian David Crane
Oh okay apologies all right? yeah so I mean maybe there’s maybe there’s different attack vectors there being australian as opposed to the Us. But

01:10:20.41 – Martin Krung
Yeah, okay maybe be just more Kyle a such enough o my more teaching I don’t know sometimes you know I don’t know it’s just yeah, if you talk about risky.

01:10:28.00 – Brian David Crane
Yeah.

01:10:38.47 – Martin Krung
I Think Swissland is a very good place. Basically not for myself. I am Swiss and I’m still stuck somewhere. Oh no, but it’s a good place to innovate because we are not very scared of the Swiss and you know it’s pretty consative in a way.

01:10:44.86 – Brian David Crane
Yeah.

01:10:57.24 – Martin Krung
But the other way the government doesn’t regulate. Everything was fresh and new. It was just we looked and saw what’s going to happen. Maybe we should regulate , you know, we are frozen. I don’t here. Okay I lost you.