On this episode, I invite Phil Craig onto the show. He is the leader of South Africa’s Referendum Party — a single-issue party whose goal is to call a referendum on the Western Cape province seceding from South Africa. According to polls, 68% of Western Cape voters support holding a referendum, and 58% support independence.

We talk about South African politics and economics, why the Western Cape is so different from other provinces, internal and external migration trends in South Africa, what a free and independent Western Cape province would look like, and why Westerners (and especially Americans) who believe in political self-determination should care about this issue for moral as well as geopolitical reasons. I admire Phil’s efforts!

Who Is Phil Craig?

Phil Craig is a prominent figure in the political landscape of South Africa, particularly known for his advocacy for the independence of the Western Cape from the rest of the country. As the co-founder and spokesperson for the Cape Independence Advocacy Group, Craig has become synonymous with the movement seeking a referendum on the Western Cape’s secession. His journey into political activism is driven by a belief in the right to self-determination, a principle he argues is enshrined in international law and recognized by the South African constitution.

Craig’s approach to achieving Cape independence is strategic and multifaceted. He emphasizes the importance of utilizing legal frameworks and international charters that South Africa is a part of, advocating for a peaceful and lawful path towards independence. Under his guidance, the movement has focused on drafting legislation like the Western Cape Peoples Bill, aimed at asserting the region’s right to self-determination. This legislative approach underscores Craig’s commitment to a process that is rooted in democratic principles and respectful dialogue.

Before he began with the Cape Independence movement, Craig’s background was diverse, spanning both the business world and community service. This eclectic experience has equipped him with a broad skill set, enabling him to navigate the complexities of political activism and community mobilization effectively.

Phil Craig’s vision extends beyond mere political restructuring; he advocates for a governance model that allows for greater autonomy and self-governance, reflecting the unique identity and aspirations of the Western Cape’s inhabitants. His leadership in the independence movement is not just a political stance but a reflection of his broader commitment to justice, democracy, and the right of communities to shape their destinies.

Key Takeaways

• The Universal Right to Self-Determination: We discuss the global principle of self-determination, a right enshrined in international law. This principle advocates for the ability of a people to determine their political status and pursue their economic, social, and cultural development. Our discussion highlights how movements for autonomy or independence often stem from this fundamental right, offering a broader perspective on why such movements arise globally.
• Strategic Use of Legal Frameworks for Political Goals: Craig’s approach to seeking Cape independence through legal and constitutional means showcases the importance of understanding and leveraging legal frameworks to achieve political objectives. This strategy is applicable worldwide, where political movements might use existing laws and international agreements to advocate for change or assert rights.
• The Role of Electoral Politics in Advocacy Movements: The strategy of forming a political party to press for a referendum on independence illustrates the critical role electoral politics can play in advocacy movements. This approach underscores how participating in formal political processes can provide leverage for groups seeking to bring about change, regardless of the specific issue or geographic context.
• Challenges of Regional Autonomy within National Contexts: We discuss the challenges faced by the Cape Independence movement, such as negotiating with national and provincial governments, this reflects a universal theme in regional autonomy movements. It highlights the complexities of pursuing greater self-governance within the framework of existing national laws and policies, a challenge faced by many regions around the world seeking more control over their affairs.

Favorite Phil Craig Quote

 

“Since 1945, almost every single conflict around the world has its source in the denial of self-determination… It’s not people looking to assert their right to self-determination that’s the problem; it’s when countries deny people the right to live out their existence as they see fit where problems start.” – Phil Craig

Additional Resources

• Referendum Party on Facebook
• Phil Craig on Twitter
• Referendum Party
• Truth to Power: My Three Years Inside Eskom, André de Ruyter
• André de Ruyter: More Truth to Power
• DA’s Devolution bill will empower provinces, ensure effective governance – Annelie Lotriet
• South African History Online – The end of the Cold War and a new global world order 1989 to present
• The Covenant, James A. Michener

Final Thoughts

I learned a lot from Phil and I hope you enjoyed the episode. I also hope you’ll join me on this journey of discovery as I explore compelling stories from around the globe. From quests for independence to innovations in technology and beyond, the Spread Great Ideas Podcast covers a wide range of topics that inspire, challenge, and inform.

Subscribe to stay updated on our latest episodes, share your thoughts with a review, and follow us on social media (X, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn) for engaging discussions and sneak peeks into upcoming content. Your voice matters to us, so join the conversation and be a part of our community. Subscribe now and let’s explore the world together!

Full Transcript of Our Conversation

Introduction to Phil Craig and Cape Independence Advocacy

00:55.63 – Phil Craig
It’s a pleasure and thank you very much for the invitation. It’s great to be with you.

Forming the Referendum Party: A Strategic Move for Independence

01:01.46 – Brian Crane
Thank you. So tell me a little bit as far as what has happened recently with respect to your trajectory as far as Cape Independence Advocacy advocacy group goes and then your decision to. Start the Referendum party. How did that come about?

Mainstreaming Cape Independence: From Fringe Idea to Political Agenda

01:17.51 – Phil Craig
Sure so in many ways the referendum party is effectively a project of the advocacy group. So we started the advocacy group about four years ago and with the view of progressing this idea of Cape independence which at that time was rarely a fringe idea. It’s much much more mainstream now. And um, and part of that was to lobby the provincial government which ironically is kind of ideologically aligned with us in terms of its core values. Ah, but wouldn’t see secession as the solution. So yeah, there’s always this sort of slightly awkward relationship between ideological allies who want different outcomes. and and our intention was always to create sufficient pressure on the provincial government because unusually in the south african constitution the the premier the provincial premier has the authority to call a referendum. He doesn’t need the national government to either consent or to approve of that and so that was really our purpose and actually. Fairly early on we did get that consent. We did get an agreement on a referendum. But ultimately the provincial party that leads the government in the westernate reneged on that deal and was then unwilling and is now unwilling to call a referendum even though it knows that the majority of voters in the province. Favor a referendum and even more strongly ironically amongst its own voters as a party and and that effectively you know led us in a situation where we had no choice then but to to oppose them. Electorally we’re not trying to get power. We certainly end. We’re not likely to get anywhere near sufficient votes anyway. But that’s not our ambition. We’re just trying to create.

Strategies and Challenges in Gaining Political Leverage

02:51.21 – Phil Craig
Political leverage here and against the provincial government to to force it to effectively listen to its own voters.

02:58.99 – Brian Crane
And so how does the yeah, the parliamentary system work at a provincial level. So let’s assume based on your polls. What do you think you might get 10% 20% ah 5 % but you know what? what are you able to achieve based on. Ah, based on getting some sort of power inside of the western cape ah provincial government.

03:17.99 – Phil Craig
Sure? yeah, so look where we’re targeting 100000 votes which would be about 5% of the likely voters in this election. We only hosted the party in November. It’s yeah this has sort of happened quite and and one of the fortunate things is the. The provincial government pursued some delaying tactics for some time which to a certain degree quite effectively because we sort of held. Yeah, we sort of held off hoping that they would and or believing that they would honor their previous agreement and so but that’s enough and we’re not fighting alone. There are other political parties who are already advocating for cape independence. So collectively we would like to think that we’d get about 7 or 8% of the vote in the western cape and that that will be enough to force a referendum on cape independence I’m fairly sure.

Coalition Politics and the Referendum Party’s Electoral Strategy

04:05.23 – Brian Crane
And that would include driving around here in the western cape to pa weeks that would include cape exit the um ah they have a blue and white. yeah, like they’ve created like a western capes flag iconography and there’s also um. Ah, yellow and green one the vp um, if I get the acronym right? Yeah, so the 3 of you would basically be able to have control of seven percent of would get 7 % of the vote. Yeah.

04:23.30 – Phil Craig
Yeah, yeah.

04:30.30 – Phil Craig
Yeah, yeah, are perhaps more so you at the freedom front plus who are currently that’s the one with the that’s so the green and yellow then um, look actually in english it’s Ff plus freedom front plus but they but the but the holy it’s an african speaking party. So it’s far from the front which is a. Just the same thing in afs and that’s where the the vf comes from and and they had about 3% in the last election mason thought cape independence at the cape independence party which also uses the name. Capepegs is um. That’s quite a small party. They got about half a percent of the vote so they had about three and a half percent of the vote. There was another party, actually the cape colored congress, who supported cape independence in the last election. So last time out we got about 5.3% of the vote collectively and the referendum party didn’t exist. Um.

05:13.48 – Brian Crane
Are.

05:17.89 – Phil Craig
And under this occasion we need to do more and effectively we need to know we’ve got a pr system of a proportional representation is our system of government here. So effectively, we need to open up the possibility of what we would call kingmakers you know, either your provincial government now gets 47 or 48% it needs to find somebody else. Get it over the line and that very much is our strategy and because ideologically you know we would be a party that we were a single issue party but most of our members would be broadly sent to right and then yeah, the provincial government is sent to right? The freedom front classes center to right? and. The freedom front plus the provincial government which is the democratic alliance are already in multiple coalition governments at municipal level throughout the province. So we would be the natural allies and they would struggle to find other allies and us and ultimately you know we’re not pushing them very hard. We’re pushing them to do something. Polling says 79% of their own voters want so it becomes quite an easy deal and you know and and one of the problems you’ve got with the democratic alliance which is the party that’s leading the provincial government is as a national party. 70% of its voters are outside of the western cape so you have this conflict of does it act in the best interests of the people in the western cape who elected it provincially or does the does the reality of of of political machinations mean it acts in the best interests of the da at the democratic alliance of the da and.

06:40.66 – Phil Craig
On the basis of its national interests and unfortunately that’s what we’ve got. Yeah the the political interests of the da on a national scale and are taking precedent over the the interests of the Western Cape people and the provincial election and that’s what’s kind of forced this situation and. But I mean yeah, so it’s so it’s a relatively easy situation to unpick if we can get that critical political leverage.

The Legal and International Framework Supporting Cape Independence

07:01.23 – Brian Crane
It makes sense. Yeah, and so what has happened with the day as far as I was reading before the call they had put forward this provincial powers Bill or a devolution bill I don’t remember the exact name of it. It hasn’t really. But like it hasn’t moved at the federal level or at the national level and so their middle ground is to try to advance more autonomy for the western cape while also maintaining that the western cape stays part of South Africa that’s their general strategy.

07:20.27 – Phil Craig
Yeah.

07:32.75 – Phil Craig
Yeah, look so effectively that their strategy is one of containment. Um and and that bill actually is Eo is really a wolf in sheep’s clothing that that bill particularly was designed to do and take the sting out of the Western Cape Peoples Bill. So that yeah and and I was involved in in you know, intricate in intimately in that I conceived the Western Cap Peoples Bill I led the legal team that wrote it and I consulted with the da on on their Western Cape Provincial Powers bill and we tried to negotiate very to compromises around those things and.

08:03.64 – Brian Crane
Definitely then let me expand.

Debating Devolution and Federalism within South Africa’s Political Landscape

08:09.27 – Phil Craig
Look in essence the the da support the devolution of powers absolutely in principle they support federalism so they’d likes South Africa to change from being a unitary state to or a quasi-federal unitary state into a full federal state and although in practice they’re not willing to do what it takes to get there so and. And after the 2021 elections we formed with them. In fact, it was our idea that we conceived this thing called the western cape devolution working group and what we said is look. Let’s get all of these centers together right? Political parties and civil society. All of these people believe that actual and a measure of autonomy is critical for the western cape and let’s not worry about the end result. Let’s not worry about whether you’re a devolutionist or a federalist or a secessionist. Let’s just start getting power away from pretoria where it’s being abused and to the western cape and we worked with the yeah I could say it was it was it was our project but the da we involved the freedom front plus were involved to other political parties involved afri forum solidarity and a whole lot of academics. So it was a really powerful working group. The western cape governs the city of cape town. and and out of that. Ah, but it is always the case. They’re difficult with the witch and you’ll understand this from around the world. They’ve been in power in the western cape for 15 years now. They’ve become the status quo and so therefore you know they don’t really want to turn the tables over. They don’t really want to push a radical agenda. It suits them to sort of go slowly slowly.

09:39.16 – Phil Craig
And and and because actually they don’t really want the other status quo suits them quite well so we were pushing for much more radical. You know like they were elected in 2019 provinciality on a ticket of devolution. So they supported devolution but they couldn’t deliver it and and actually coming the end of this term they said they were going to fight for the devolution of policing of rail and. The end of the term. They’ve failed and they’ve failed spectacularly. they’ve got no possible prospect of delivering either. They’ve asked and that and they’ve and they’ve been unceremoniously told no and we then sat down with them and said well look actually. International law which then is manifested in the south african constitution provides some really strong opportunities and for autonomy you know everybody has a right to self-determination. The.

10:26.72 – Phil Craig
South Africa recognises that right? It’s in several international charities with South Africa as signed and ratified through parliament. So let’s use international law which we were much more familiar with secessionists. To to to so to to drive the the internally and we said look let’s start by writing a western cape peoples bill which claims the right to self-determination for the western cape people and then you can go back for devolution or federalism or whatever else on the basis of asserting a right as opposed to um, just asking and. And the da were and as often the case worked with them. Yeah were very cautious initially they were keen on the idea but ultimately just didn’t have the courage to bring the bill and in the final reckoning. We then sat down with the freedom front class who’d been waiting in the wings and they said well they’ll bring. And we said to the da look if you’re not going to vote for this bill which would deliver federalism which is supposed to be your policy and not ours and you’re not willing to vote for this bill then we’re going to make you vote against this bill and show people that actually you’re saying you want federalism but you’re yeah, never mind and you’re offering federalism as a compromise to se secession. But actually you’re not even willing to do what it takes to get federalism. So we wrote that bill and the freedom front plus said the table light bill and then suddenly the da then quickly wrote this bill the western cape provincial powers bill the one that you’re talking about and said but here’s here here here is a federalism bill now. Let’s pass this one instead and course.

11:42.47 – Brian Crane
I

11:49.27 – Phil Craig
And and and we looked at it and said well this isn’t a federalism bill. This is a devolution bill and it relies on the consent of the national government. You were just moving debt chairs around on the Titanic here. and the bottom line is they haven’t given you for the last five years and they are about to give you it now and we said it’s fine. It was quite a good bill in that it created an obligation on the west. Cape to seek additional powers but they didn’t need to be passed alongside the western cape people’s bill which acquired the right to claim those additional powers and we said let’s pass the 2 bills together and they said no um so they’ve obviously pushed this bill. And actually then got legal opinions from the parliament saying this bill actually won’t pass constitutional muster but I’ve just pressed ahead anyway and as you say this week the public hearings are going out. Head the an c have been fighting to close those down so you have this strange situation now that the anc and the and the da are squaring off over cape independence where neither of them supported and this was a compromise bill from the da. So from our point of view. There’s a certain amount of sort of schadenfreude. Ah. Watching this. We support the Bill. We’re glad the DA brought this bill but actually their motivation was effectively to try and undermine the other bills and get out from this corner of the ah to try and placate the western cap people with something that wasn’t quite what people think it is and.

13:10.58 – Phil Craig
And the consequences. It’s blown up in their face and we want the bill Passed. but actually we want them to realize there is no happy solution here. There is going to be no yeah, come by R with the Anc. You know you’re going to have to get real about this and actually you need to pass the Western K Peoples Bill. And actually more important that you need to call a Referendum and Cape Independence. Even if you’re a federalist your best way to to negotiate federalism is to get a mandate for Independence and try and compromise with the national government as opposed to constantly go cap in hand. So That’s the kind of how the scenarios played out from our point of View. We We effectively.

13:37.60 – Brian Crane
Yeah quote.

13:46.22 – Phil Craig
We’ve recognized devolution isn’t Possible. We’ve established that federalism isn’t possible because the da aren’t willing to actually do what it takes which brings us right back to secession which is what we wanted all alone but effectively the middle ground has been taken off the table now and it’s Cape Independence or nothing effectively. And yeah. Guess that’s kind of okay with us too.

Impacts of National Policy on Cape Independence Efforts

14:03.66 – Brian Crane
And what happens if there is a great summary. Thank you so much for what happened in this election. Yeah, how do you see the numbers shaking out both at a federal level. Let’s say and you know so let’s assume you get to the 7 % um you then become the king maker in the western cape the da is forced to push forward with yeah, but basically push forward. You’ve created leverage against them. They’re in between a rock and a hard place they push at the federal level for this. Um.

14:28.49 – Phil Craig
So.

14:38.58 – Brian Crane
And you have what does it look like at the federal level like the Eff is the King Maker and the a c doesn’t make to 50% or the da somehow forms some sort of like what it looks like at the federal level post. Ah yeah.

14:49.10 – Phil Craig
So and and the federal level you mean the national level the national government. Yeah, so yeah, and so look at that I think it’s fairly clear. What’s going to happen at the National level now and I think one of the ironies is that the pollsters don’t really dispute the reality.

14:55.58 – Brian Crane
Thank you? Yes, yeah.

15:08.34 – Phil Craig
What happens is for their own reasons. Yeah politicians and many many voters have kind of got their heads in the sand because the reality is really really uncomfortable. 1 So what’s likely to happen is the Anc are almost certainly going to fall below 50% which is in theory what all of the sort of the opponents of the ancs say they want. Ah, the danger is that right now the anc is a really corrupt terrible government totally incompetent. Yeah, and really, but in real terms I so I’m going to be careful with my words. Yeah, it’s destroyed the livelihoods of people in the western who know we’re sitting with economic growth all over South Africa. I should say I have seen an anemic economic growth. Yeah colossal unemployment is a terrible crime. So they’re certainly not benign in that thing but ultimately ideologically they’re relatively benign. They’re not They’re not calling for genocide. You know they’ve turned down expropriation of all property. Yeah, that sort of the really ridiculous Symbolab We Esque policies they’ve averted now they’re going to fall below 50 when they fall but you know 50% they are going to have to make up their votes and they’re going to look for their votes. On the ideological left they are going to be forced into government with the people who are advocating for these extraordinary extreme policies and the ef as the third largest party which is a breakaway from the anc is the biggest threat and what of the Amc calling what are the ef calling for the privatization.

16:38.89 – Phil Craig
Of sorry the nationalization of all state- owned industries. The nationalized objects of major industries. Sorry obviously the state-owned ones are obviously already nationalized. Um and the expropriation of all property rights. In other words, all property belongs to the state and actually. When asked by the Bbc you know they’re not said they’re not ruling out the um, the the genocide or the slaughter of white people just yet. So I mean we’re talking about a genocidal organization and that is deeply deeply racist far far extreme left. And they are the most likely partners. So the anc are going to become infinitely more dangerous and after after so after I would I would much rather have them at 51% than have them at 47% because actually at 51% they are relatively benign. They’re a disastrous government. But I mean we’re not talking about total total Zimbabwe implosion if they end up with the eight with the yeah ef that’s what we are talking about. We are talking about a catastrophic failure of South Africa and and and and quite possibly you know with murderous intent to go with that and the um. On the other side you’ve got this fight and what we’ve got on the other side is you’ve got all of these groups Allying. Ah and ah lying under what they call the multi multiparty charter trying to summon up enough votes. But the reality is they are going to fall woefully short the current polling has them at.

18:09.17 – Phil Craig
36% they were at 33% three years ago so they’ve managed to make 3 points up and those parties are deluding themselves and still to this day four months from the election. They’re 15 points short of a majority and are claiming that they can still get it which is just absolute insanity. And what’s worse is they’re convincing people that this is possible because people are absolutely desperate. and the danger is that people are taking stock of what they really should be doing and the reality is that South Africa has an eye that is this strong. Ideological divide that runs through you know you’ve got one part of the population that effectively is an african nationalistic africa for africans racially driven left-wing. Ah, basically what’s race-based policy. What’s the centralization of control communist effectively? But yeah, without some of the trimmings and on the other side you’ve got this um population, this relatively western leaning population that is that leans towards the free market that wants genuine non-racialism. Um.

Socio-Economic Drivers and Vision for an Independent Cape

18:58.41 – Brian Crane
Communist.

19:15.61 – Phil Craig
And and and the only province in South Africa that always votes for that is the western cape. So that’s where cape independence comes from. It’s kind of like well okay, we can’t do anything about the rest of South Africa because people are voting for that government. However, bad it is that our elections are broadly free and fair and. In the western cape for 30 years The majority of people have never once voted for that government. We’re not electing it and the only reason we’re having all of those disastrous policies hanging over our head is because we’re choosing to remain part of South Africa and if we opt out of South Africa we walk away from all of those problems and and um. Yeah, you know that that’s the essence of cape independence and obviously it’s very very frustrating watching the mainstream political parties who obviously have great clouds and influence kind of dismissing cape independence as not necessary as don’t worry, we’re going to save them. And 1 of the interesting things that we’ve seen is the exact scenario that they want to play out. They’re not even going to get there but it. But if we saw it in Johannesburg in 2021 they actually got the Amc to 34% of the vote the ef to 11% so that left-wing coalition. Suddenly only got 45% of the vote and what they now call the multi-party charter got 46% of the vote and that was then hailed as this massive breakthrough. The reality is that that multi-party charter is so diverse they can’t agree on anything and the net result is.

20:42.72 – Phil Craig
Two years later hannesburg has turned into an absolute disaster service deliveries totally collapsed and and the the da itself then called for fresh elections in 2023 saying this city is literally ungovernable and all of its people are suffering so you have this remarkable situation where the policy that failed abjectly in Johannesburg and they are now proposing as that as as as the sort of the other There’s the the fix all solution for South Africa and yeah it’s insane. It’s insane. Unfortunately.

21:13.82 – Brian Crane
Yeah I so anecdotally coming back here we spent five months here and two years ago now we’re back and at the federal level what you see is. Both the failure of transnet and the failure of eskom as the 2 largest. yeah, the 2 most glaring from what I’ve read with cape town and you have this strife in the red sea and it would seem a glorious opportunity for these ports in South Africa to make a ton of money. And handle additional cargo freight and the port of cape town can’t handle it the porta durban can’t handle it. Um and escom which is also a state-owned enterprise. Doesn’t seem to be able to get out from underneath load shedding. I was just watching an interview with Andre De Reuter and read his excellent book truth to power and I think that at the federal level it’s clear this incompetence is widespread. It’s theft. 1 thing I like about the south africans is they come up with these euphemisms to sort of soften the blow of things state capture is ah the way that theft is called and load shedding is when the power is off but I think that yeah so like inside of South Africa

22:31.66 – Brian Crane
It seems like what’s happening is that there’s also this term semi-gration where you have people from Joeberg who are moving down to the Western Cape they’re selling their property or yeah this is like Retirees or is it people who are working age like who’s driving this semi-gration.

Demographic Changes and Political Realities in the Western Cape

22:49.90 – Phil Craig
Well I think everybody so ultimately I think yeah, yeah, it’s an extraordinary situation if you start to look at this at the skilled population of South Africa everybody is busy making a plan. there’s ah there’s a saying in South Africa a border marker planner yeah for the afraid that day every yeah in day whenever there’s a problem. We’ll find a solution and at this point in time everybody is sitting at it with what they have seen the statistic art member. The percentage of skilled people are thinking leaving this country is absolutely astronomical. It’s said to be more than half of them and I think people are saying well what do I do? Do I go and move to? Yeah europe do I go move to the states do I move to Canada do I move to Australia or do or do I move to south to to the western cape and in the western cape in some ways you know you can buy yourself a little bit more time. Yeah. The western cape we have to be absolutely I so wished it wasn’t the case because I live here and all my assets are here. Yeah definitely has not got a rosy long-term future. You know at the end of the day South Africa will catch the western cape up. But for now because we have this other government that at least? yeah, yeah. Manages relatively competently and honestly and tries to appoint on merit and has strong fiscal disciplines that at least in some of the areas we’ve created a relatively functional society and so much more functional than the rest of South Africa that many people are saying well look I’m just going to move to the western gate.

24:13.98 – Phil Craig
You know we we. So for example, where and and ah a lot of the things that the western cape is doing are things that can help itself so you know 80 or 90% of the jobs in South Africa are being made in the in the western cape even though we represent 11% of the population and the western cape. I Have already made steps. So it’s so it’s busy creating its own electricity in 5 years time load shedding blackouts as you say the proper term blackouts will be finished in the western cape because the local governments have just basically. Suffer generating their ownership. They’re even allowed to by law. They’ve ignored the law. They’re gone out to the market and they’re basically going to fill in the gap and create electricity and you know so you you you? you? you have this resilience so the western cape now. Offers and and and people say well it’s like a completely different country and it is like a completely different country. You know, literally the way the roads are kept the way the hospitals work the way that the schools work. You know it doesn’t mean that we’re not without problems because we absolutely do have problems, but people are then moving from upcountry to this more functional society. And hoping that somehow and that they can kind of, you know, get outrun communism. But yeah, yeah, yeah, the reality is that you’re and I’m using the word communism in its broader sense.

25:27.97 – Phil Craig
Reality is you can’t outrun communism because what follows you is all of the people who voted for communism too and that’s exactly what’s happening in the western cape. And yeah, the poorest province in South Africa is the Eastern Cape which is next door. It’s only ever been governed by the anc it. Give the Anc and ah overwhelming endorsement in these elections without a shadow of doubt and yet in the in the in the last decade about 15% of its population has moved to the western cape to run away from what it’s voted for and when it arrives in that those when those people they settle land illegally in the western cape. On a mass scale and we know from polling when they get here. They vote for exactly what they’ve run away from and that is and we’re seeing this ah serious ah demographic shift of the population in the west government i’ve no issue with the race part of that. Have an issue with the ideological part of that because eventually that the western cape is going to be a vendor voting for communism and that’s the end and that’s why cap independence is so important. Yeah, at the end of the day that is actually just saying look for people who vote differently. We’ve got to close the borders now. We’ve got to seal ourselves off. And be able to vote sensibly for you know, non-racialism for these markets but to create this functional state and then after that perhaps we can move back and we can help Africa and we can. Yeah we can. We can play a development role. But first of all, we have to save ourselves.

26:52.72 – Phil Craig
Because in 10 years time the western cape will look like the rest of South Africa if we don’t get cape independence.

26:56.68 – Brian Crane
Yeah, it’s a similar dynamic in the US where California is effectively a third world country. You have the uber rich you have a widespread the middle class has totally hollowed out the people who voted for these policies left wing. Policies for lack of a better way to put it. They leave California because it’s become untenable. They move to other states and then they vote consistently like they voted in California and bring the same failed policies from California to elsewhere in the US Colorado is an example of this There’s a lot of talk internally of how to.

27:20.40 – Phil Craig
Yeah.

27:32.21 – Brian Crane
Keep Californians from voting for you from moving to your country so you can sort of insulate yourself from this. Um and it’s what you’re describing with the eastern cape from voters from elsewhere and in South Africa as they come. yeah as they come to the western cape so then in.

27:40.91 – Phil Craig
And um.

27:49.42 – Brian Crane
I think it’s interesting as well. So people understand this like the demographics inside of the western cape versus let’s call it elsewhere in South Africa and also because you have these 2 policies that I’m aware of like Bb ee I might get the acronyms wrong. But this broad-based ah black empowerment bb be um.

28:09.38 – Brian Crane
And you have this um like this effectively like a racist procurement setup where if you are a state-owned Enterprise you need to buy according to you know, racial characteristics of the owners of the companies and so a big part of.

28:15.54 – Phil Craig
Yeah.

28:26.53 – Brian Crane
What’s happened in cape independence from what I was reading is it’s actually these groups of people called colors that are very pro. Ah cape independence and very pro referendum party because they’re kind of in the worst of both worlds right? Like they don’t they don’t get any of the quote unquote benefits of Bbb and um.

28:38.90 – Phil Craig
Yeah.

28:44.66 – Phil Craig
Sure yeah, look so that so so the western so so so yes the western cape is demographically very different. Ironically, it’s the most racially diverse province in South Africa so broadly speaking the population of the western capers. We currently stand about 46% what we would call colored and ah.

28:44.68 – Brian Crane
Yeah, do you want to talk about that for a minute?

29:04.35 – Phil Craig
People who are brown-skinned and often um and they will largely be an amalgamation of the original koy and the san indigenous people who over time will have then mixed with with malay settlers with european settlers and actually now it’s very difficult to say you know who who’s what in there. But that’s ah, a. Relation group that is probably the most indigenous to to to Southern Africa South Africa and certainly to the western cape and that’s they they were the majority that yeah this point in time they’re sort of slightly decreasing in relative terms but they’re about 46% at the moment. Then you have the white population at about 16 % and then you have the black population which is about 20% and there is a traditional black population but in but but but in 9094 the black population was about 20% and that’s doubled to about 40% as we currently speak. So at this point in time. It’s relatively healthy.

29:56.31 – Brian Crane
In the Western cape. Yeah.

29:59.70 – Phil Craig
In the western cape. Yeah, and this is through migration of people coming from running away from the from the Eastern Cape and and look and and and for good reason the Eastern Cape is a disaster so I always have to really careful for I have absolutely no issue with people migrating for for a better life I did it myself you I’m not native to the to the western cape. Yeah I think it just used to be done in an orderly fashion. and you know legally and and obviously without destroying. Yeah, what’s there when you get there? so and so so and and and in terms of cape independence. It’s got strong support amongst white people. It’s got the stronger support amongst colored people and then it has a sizeable majority of but of. A size or minority of black people. So yeah because we mustn’t think people vote according to race. You know, obviously you’ll have a correlation and but I mean there’s yeah, there’s plenty of so center right? You know, really intelligently minded black voters who can see exactly the same as we would see and there’s equally plenty of. Crazy left-wing white people who are absolutely bonkers. So you know there’s ah, there’s sort of an exact correlation with race. But there’s some correlation. when it comes to policies. Yeah people just if you if they haven’t lived in South Africa They just have no idea of what goes on so we have these 2 policies effectively at. A broad based black economic empowerment basically means that any business you want to conduct race becomes a really strong determining factor and you know who you buy from as soon as your company gets over.

31:27.31 – Phil Craig
Ah, very very small size. You must buy from people that are black owned. You must sell to people that are black owned. You must employ people of a certain race. There are race quotas for what your employers must not, your management team must be a certain rate and it’s absolutely insane beyond and in an extreme example. So let’s go to something that happens. It really happens you can Google it and. But it just shows the craziness. So now we find ourselves a children’s senior. Let’s yeah, 1718 years old in a senior representative rugby team playing for your province. You’re now playing for your province and what happens is now. There’s a quota saying in the picture all times there must be 10 black people. Must be 5 white people now in in one of the senior games now what happens is ah the the subs have been used up all of a sudden one of the black players gets injured and there isn’t another black player to put on the pitch so they take 1 of the white players and and bring on an extra white player. And the team wins the game but gets disqualified because even though it was replacing an injured player. They had too many people of the wrong race and therefore literally got disqualified from a senior level competition that is the insanity. Of where we are with race, therefore that’s what we’re fighting against. We’re not fighting against hang on a second apartheid was terrible and we and we need to create a fairer society because i.

32:49.55 – Phil Craig
Ah, apartsite was terrible and we absolutely need to create a fairer society. Yeah, it’s the insanity with which we do that. How do we create a fairer society by creating a Vibrant economy which creates work by creating education by uplifting people? That ultimately we create opportunities for people and and um, um, and we get away from our terrible Past. We don’t do it by taking the very worst aspects of apartheid and repeating them again.

33:10.65 – Brian Crane
Yeah.

33:15.94 – Phil Craig
Ad Nauseum which is exactly where we are now and that’s what we’re trying to get away from.

33:20.57 – Brian Crane
Yeah, is there a push at all at the federal level. So what is the history of some of these bills as far as you know so you had the national the national party there was this transition from the national party to the a and c under Mandela. Um. And like when did these policies come into effect. They came into effect in the 90’s like and is there any talk at all at the federal level of actually trying to get rid of these or because they’re to me the root of a lot of the stuff which is like very anti meritocratic right? I like it. It’s basically race based. It’s not meritocratic.

33:48.79 – Phil Craig
Yeah, yeah, totally against you.

33:57.36 – Brian Crane
And it’s racist like if you want to point at a policy. It’s like these things are purely racist. is there any talk of scrapping them probably not because the a and C benefits the most from it.

34:05.62 – Phil Craig
Exactly the opposite they’re being strengthened every year so every year right now they’re talking about strengthening so what? So what? These policies came in under Tarabo and Becky they came in the late 90’s early early 2000 and what happens is it’s a classic case of left-wing politics. So what happens is you come with this idea which isn’t economically sound but ideologically you convince yourself that we have to do this because it’s the right thing to do if you implement your policy. It’s a total disaster. It has exactly the opposite effect of what you want, you should sit down and go okay, well that didn’t work but you sit down and go well, we just didn’t do enough of that. So then you ramp up the regulations a bit more and then you sit and then you come along and you say um, oh well, hang on a second. The boards of our top hundred companies are all you know, 50% white but actually white people make up 16% of the population. Well they get well. But then we must have stricter laws. We must have fines, we must threaten people with prison, nobody sits down and says well what percentage of you know, ah University Degrees went to accountants. Yeah I mean that? Yeah, yeah, and logically speaking well hang on a second you know if we have a really fair system then you know the sort of composition of financial ah senior and financial chief financial officers should be representative of the criminal la kreme of the people that came out of accounting.

35:31.44 – Phil Craig
We don’t have any of that. We just round Well there you go? Why is it that white people are just continuing to be racist. This is the system. Let’s do more of it or that’s not strict enough. So right now we’re busy ramping up. Be again, We’ve just changed last year affirmative action to literally impose in every single industry. We now have quotas. If you have a fish and chip shop. There is a quota for what your race composition must be for your staff for your fishion chip shop. Yeah, if you happen to be mine. You have a different quota. Yeah, if it happens to be a hotel and you literally have to go into your industry and stay in my workforce. How should I? And actually now it’s at senior level and my junior staff must be in this ratio. My middle management must be in this ratio. My senior management. My shareholders must be in this ratio. It is absolutely insane now on Earth. Do you run businesses in that environment? I mean it’s insanity. Total insanity.

36:26.30 – Brian Crane
And and and this billionaire class of A and C associated politicians or business leaders from what I had understood. They made their fortunes predominantly by getting supported aah point to some of these boards that needed to comply with some of this stuff. Getting their finger into yeah they got on not because of merit they got on because they were black and they were like okay cool now we need to have a blackboard member and we have this one that can nominally serve and we pay them if that is that accurate.

36:51.28 – Phil Craig
Yeah, no, absolutely. So what do you end up with, you start off with a system where you’ve got all of these boards you create a set of rules that you now must have x amount of black people on the board. Otherwise you can’t do business with the state. You can’t do business with anybody else and. Now. So now suddenly then you have this elite class of people who say well look there I’m the. But yeah, so you have for yeah sawra paper is the elite shareholder in Mcdonald’s in you know at the end of day at one point I I could up the numbers right? Ah Don but sorama porter who is now our president who was a union leader so this should be the last person to be sitting on something like 250 boards now you know it is rich beyond your wildest imagination. I mean who could possibly sit on 250 boards. Yeah, what are you there for you’re not there for anything other than to tick a box you create this system where we create the rules then you fill the rules and you have these people who are just you know. It’s all about extraction now. Yeah now how do we create a system where we extract value out of the economy and therefore um and that’s had a totally destructive effect because of what happens with people. Yeah now you’re just you’re you’re deterring entrepreneurship. You’re not starting new companies. The name of the game is well how do I leech off somebody else’s hard work. How do I leverage my race to to and actually what we’ve seen and 1 of the big frustrations is all of a sudden white people who’ve been excluded from the economy start to do better and better because they’re forced into entrepreneurial environments.

38:11.29 – Brian Crane
And Depth brushes my stress. Yeah from that strength? Yeah yeah.

38:18.20 – Phil Craig
They they they they they? Ah they can’t rely on the government so they become increasingly in inventitive increasingly competitive because the market makes them so they literally can’t survive otherwise and on the opposite effect you, you’re creating this class of people who just become less than you know, never build anything, never do anything. Yeah that because actually.

38:30.56 – Brian Crane
But right, but so you’re yeah.

38:37.45 – Phil Craig
What they end up being is a means of extraction and that’s how our economy is layered and obviously again, that’s a generalization. There’s some brilliant black people out there who were great. It’s not. It’s not everybody but you have this ah elite political caste who are who are yeah parasites. Yeah, then today we have you know we have we have tens of thousands of parasites

38:50.70 – Brian Crane
Yeah, yeah, yes.

38:57.10 – Phil Craig
In our economy we find you know when you look at state capture as you say which is just theft. Yeah, we find people paying you know Twenty Thousand Rand for a wooden handled mop you know which is like a hundred rans I mean what’s done there were 20000 random dollars yeah yeah a thousand dollars and for a wood for a wooden handled mop I mean it’s.

39:10.98 – Brian Crane
Thousand dollars yeah

39:16.33 – Phil Craig
Yeah, you know where why? well they bought it for $1 and they marked up 999 they were the preferred supply. You had to buy from them because they were black. You know it’s it’s it’s yeah, it’s it’s insane. It’s insane. Yeah.

Conclusion and Reflections on Cape Independence

39:29.15 – Brian Crane
Yeah, yeah, it makes an analogy. It’s analogous with Dei in the states where you have ironically the group that is um, it’s it’s it’s it’s white men who are.

39:34.81 – Phil Craig
Ship it.

39:46.87 – Brian Crane
Excelling under Dei because they’re the only ones who have received and are able to recalibrate from negative feedback and if you’re in one of the protected classes that functions under Dei If you are you know a Lesbian black who knows what and um.

40:01.64 – Phil Craig
Um.

40:06.40 – Brian Crane
And you’ve never gotten critical feedback in your life then as soon as you get into the workforce you wind up with this somebody telling you that your that your work product isn’t good and you take it as a personal attack on yourself and you think it’s based on race and they’re just like no what you’ve what you’ve done is not good. So what’s happening in the us. With the ei and these fortune 500 companies they’re actually hiring more white men particularly they came out of the military because they’re the only ones that can take constructive feedback and it’s what you’re what you’re describing with white south africans here and yeah, so so what is the. I think the last question I’m left with is what like this group of talented white south africans. yeah I was looking at the demographic trends before we started. They’re still emigrating. There is sort of like a hollowing out of people in their let’s say 20 s to 40 s that have. That have left or that have a second passport and are like actively looking at leaving um is that accurate.

41:03.29 – Phil Craig
No look absolutely the the population I think the statistics is some it scary like and look and we should say it’s not just white people that are leaving skill people are leaving you it Indian colored black. You know we were hollowing out skill people because effectively you’re sitting in this environment where you were where.

41:11.85 – Brian Crane
Yeah.

41:22.30 – Phil Craig
You know our currency is worthless particularly if you’re from that look. It is slightly different even from ethnic minorities white colored or Indian um, then you are disadvantaged compared to other people and you start to look and say well know never mind me I may be fine, but what about my children what world do they grow up in India in the day. Yeah, it becomes really difficult.

41:35.47 – Brian Crane
Yeah.

41:41.69 – Phil Craig
You know now that they can’t play for the sports team because they’re of color. They can’t get into university because they’re of color. They can’t get a job in certain sectors because they’re on color and eventually at some point you go well look I could just go live somewhere else and and and and and and I don’t have any of this and and that course is the great failing because the know the state thing is well hang on a second but you know.

41:43.30 – Brian Crane
is.

42:01.57 – Phil Craig
You advance you advance you benefited from apartheid and now obviously you know there’s almost nobody left that was voting for apartheid in the workforce with 30 generations with 30 years password more than a generation past that. Yeah, it’s absolutely insane. So if you know if you want to just if you want to somehow and. Have a quotagainst 70 year old men then then fair enough you know, but actually to be discriminating against children that were born 25 years after apartheid finished you know is is is is crazy and and of course people are you know so leaving on mass and and and as you know, yeah, there’s there’s a ratio between skilled labor. And unskilled labor. So we’ve got this massive vat of unskilled labor which we just can’t absorb into our workforce so we have you know? And ah you know unemployment rate at about 45% yeah and amongst youngsters up nearly 70% yeah, it’s it’s it’s catastrophic. And it’s entirely self-inflicted yes South Africa we got minimal wealth. It’s got assets. It’s got space. It’s got infrastructure and yeah, it’s got yeah but yeah world-class institutions which are all getting degraded. But I mean they’re kind of still have we got yeah massive real network universities.

43:00.55 – Brian Crane
Amazing weather.

43:13.77 – Phil Craig
You know? yeah the mineral wealth probably more than most other nations on earth yeah South Africa doesn’t have to be a poor country. It’s vast. Yeah, it’s a million square hectares and we’ve you know we’ve got a population of 70000000 I mean it’s you know South Africa should be absolutely sailing. And it’s not purely because of self-inflicted policy South Africa is a man-made disaster.

43:36.74 – Brian Crane
And your vision for the western cape if and when it’s able to secede what does that look like it’s on the model of a Singapore or a Hong Kong or what does it? What? What is it? it’s non racialism. But what is it? What does it look like as far as what? What do you see?

43:53.17 – Phil Craig
Yeah, so look what? But what? What do we see? So first of all, effectively what South Africa should have been in the rainbow nation. So we say right? I’m going for a second. We just close the border. We let us know how we’ve been voting for the last thirty years. We carry on voting broadly the same way we create a market oriented economy. We. We propose merit, we fix our schools, our education, we have ah we have a decent tax regime. We encourage investment but obviously South Africa is very anti-business now. All of a sudden we’re pro-business. We yeah, we’ve sort of yeah the last ten years the western cape has an average economic growth of 1.1% and the average population growth of one point six. Yeah, everybody is getting poorer suddenly, yeah the western cave should be having a 10% growth rate like Rwandan you know it’s got ports. It’s got infrastructure links. It’s sort of really skilled, it’s still a skilled workforce ah yeah it’s got ah ah yeah a lot of people that speak english extraordinarily well, it’s got a fintech sector for the agri sector. Do I mean it’s it’s it’s really good for renewable energy that there’s all sorts of things that this is that the western cap has got you see suddenly just by taking away all of those bad policy choices. We suddenly? um, ah unlock the potential of these people and that you have this massive diaspora of people who are desperate to come back to Africa’s a magnificent place to live. Yeah, Katelin even now is voting. What’s the second best city in the world? People. Love the western cape.

45:21.14 – Phil Craig
People will come back there when they can come here and prosper and all of a sudden it’ll become and we laugh not because it becomes the economic lion. I don’t know what? What do we do? What do we call it but we but we create an economist often say yeah western Kate becomes this giant special economic zone. Here we are in the african continent and it kind of links east meets west and you know and suddenly you you know you you have this special special place and in many ways like Singapore but on steroids I mean Singapore is seven hundred square square yeah ah ah kilometers ah, you know the the yeah if it fits 50 times or 40 times over or more into into the western cape and you know so but but we like Singapore we’re on this major shipping route and you know and and yeah like Singapore we have these. There are 3 race groups so there are some similarities with and with Singapore but I think that the western cap will outperform Singapore or Hong Kong. Yeah it became its own entity and I think all of that pent up frustration. All of that potential. That’s been that’s been up. Yeah under. I wanted to think of the afrikaans word sorry but but you’re pressed down and suppressed will will suddenly yeah burst forth and come to life and and you know and and it will just be an extraordinary success and because of that.

46:44.20 – Phil Craig
Brilliant for Southern Africa yeah I think then yeah it will become an inspiration that spills over into other countries because once you split South Africa up and now you’re left with your people say I think ah Elon Musk tweeted the other day. Why don’t we take why don’t we take a country and a half and and let the communists have one half and the and and the capitalists of the other half and come back and see what’s happened but let’s do it here and that’s exactly what we’re going to see there all of a sudden. The African government is going to have absolutely no excuses because western cape. Well they had apartheid they had this. They had that. Yeah, all of the things that we’ve had they’ve had so how? So suddenly if we’re growing 10% and we become a first world country then all of the excuses are gone for staffing. It’s so obviously self-inflicted. They’re not even the government will be able to dwell. I mean it will of course but it shouldn’t be able to deny it.

47:30.30 – Brian Crane
Yeah, and I I think as well 1 thing you alluded to is I think the property market here would go bananas because all of a sudden you feel super comfortable putting capital into the country because right now as a foreign investor if you look at it. You have capital controls to bring money in there if it might not be actively talked about but there is the specter of land expropriation and you need strong property rights as the basis for a functioning democracy and a functioning ah capitalistic economy and and um. Yeah I think property would go because of the weather and the terrain and the like the microclimates that are here and the ability to grow things and yeah, the it’s it’s it’s got it. Ah on paper. It’s got so much going for it.

48:22.93 – Phil Craig
Okay.

48:24.65 – Brian Crane
That is heartbreaking to see when it’s ah, not being capitalized on I think so.

48:27.86 – Phil Craig
Yeah, absolutely and and and there’s a colossal human suffering you know, obviously we know we are both living in ah in ah in a relatively privileged part of that and there are people who are living in terrible conditions. And actually the beauty thing is without us having to resort to ridiculous left-ing. Policies we can very very quickly lift those people out of poverty you know in the day that it really isn’t rocket science. It’s yeah, the potential is overwhelming even when you talk of housing and we’ve got these yeah people come and they’ll see they come to cap and they’ll see all of these. Shanty towns and vast townships of now like yeah first of all, let’s say most of those are obviously set up illegally and that shouldn’t have happened but even outside of that one of the things that we have is our laws are so stupid in almost every way we always find a way to lose. So now what’s the problem? Why can’t we create housing but it’s impossible in South Africa to remove an unpaying tenant literally impossible. So now you have all of these people living in desperate circumstances. The private sector is building 0 houses. You know you’ve got a million customers.

49:22.17 – Brian Crane
And

49:33.74 – Phil Craig
Private sector would love to build houses but nobody but nobody but nobody is building houses. The only people who are building houses for that sector are the government who builds them for free and gives them away and because the private sector won’t because the government prevents the private sector from getting paid. And you know who’s going to invest in housing stock and if you can’t remove it then you have this massive cultural non-payment. so you know these are the things that are just so easy to fix if somebody could just apply 1 modicum of common sense and say well look clearly. Yeah, we need housing. We’ve got this chronic housing shortage. We’ve got land. We’ve got developers. We’ve got everything we’ve got capital and all we haven’t got is a workable business model because the law that’s meant to protect people is doing more harm to them than anything that could possibly happen at the hands of a private landlord.

50:24.25 – Brian Crane
Yeah, yeah so I think that there’s a lot of threads that that you just touched on the one that um I have left with I emailed you about this one in the lead up to the interview which is. The transition following Mandela with Mandela and following it. Why did the national party? Why was it that there was this surface area that was left for the Anc to latch onto. You have a left-wing communist. In its roots a political party that’s going to come into power and you have what, why? Why were things like transnet or um, escom or South African Airlines why were they not privatized ahead of the end of apartheid.

51:09.94 – Phil Craig
Sure and look so so I have to say first of all I was never year during that period of time like I came to South Africa and in in 2004 so and but but I but I so but I but I can tell you and and and it’s one of the misnomers economically the national party was far left not far right? and

51:26.49 – Brian Crane
Okay.

51:28.61 – Phil Craig
So the reason that it didn’t is that the national party of the Ac with 2 peas in a pod. You know they both believed in the centralization of power so therefore they were on the same page and when you look back? Yeah people weren yeah for me sort of be It was quite shocking to come here. So for example, let’s take a sector like farming in the western cape. Now the farming sector is a major opportunity here about 50% of farms in the western cape are effectively fallow because they’re no longer viable under the current system they need to be changed because they came to to to to came to be under the national party. What did you have for the national party? Let’s take it. I live in ah in ah in a grape area, fruit area and vineyards all around me at what happened to grape farmers. There was 1 seller. You sold your grapes to Cara fear. Ah, the cape wine cooperative ah at a fixed price. So if you lived near me, you grew your grapes and you got x per ton. The price was fixed. You always made a profit. You delivered your 1 product to your 1 supplier, got paid a set amount which you knew and every single farmer made money because there wasn’t even a hint of a market economy in there and and and obviously at. That was how the national party worked now because they were so efficient. They made it work very very well. It was incredibly efficient and so for them privatization was an anathema that yeah the day they no more believed in privatization than the ancc. The difference was they were very good at running things.

52:50.48 – Brian Crane
Yes.

52:58.90 – Phil Craig
you know and and people will say well look the national party was corrupt that I’m sure on the basis that politicians every real world are are corrupted and I think you know if they were that that the national party killed that they go might might might have stolen the golden egg or every third golden egg and the difference is the Anc. Just.

52:58.63 – Brian Crane
But my work. Here.

53:16.78 – Phil Craig
Kills the chicken and looks around to see who’s going to provide the next one you know it’s so so and but there was no will for it. You know and and I think there were parties like for example, the forerunner to the da who were trying to push for a federal system and push for change. But they were just outvoted and the national party and the a c to a certain extent had elements where there were 2 peas in a pot.

53:37.70 – Brian Crane
Got it? Yeah, okay, so this has been amazing. I think we’ve covered a lot of different topics. What is the message? What? Yeah what? What? what? I think there’s 2 parts to your message. One part is the western cape needs to get out of South Africa asap the second part is once. Once that happens you would like to see the western cape be marketed. Friendly welcome to talented people, skilled people from all over the world and to create. Ah what do you call it? Ah, the lion of the lion of Africa down here on the tip is that right.

54:11.11 – Phil Craig
Absolutely an economic lion. Yeah, um, yeah, yeah, absolutely it. Yeah.

54:15.25 – Brian Crane
Economic line. Thank you yeah Do you ever do you do do you have do do you do? But do you ever worry about your safety in South Africa like Andre de reuter left. Do you? Yeah, that is a concern for you as far as you’re being an activist and talking about these sorts of things. Because I think that’s part of the rationale with the da is they don’t necessarily believe that the a and c would um adhere to or listen to a referendum vote.

54:39.29 – Phil Craig
Sure? yeah, ironically I don’t think the a as we alluded to earlier the an c aren’t really the problem I think the anc through gritted teeth and very begrudgingly would listen to a referendum vote I think that the Anc has got enough of that legacy. And and and ah and a sort of a view of itself and a place in the wider world in terms of its history that it would find it extraordinarily difficult suddenly to become the imperial power you know and and and effectively colonize the western cape you know nobody wants us here. But we’re going to force ourselves onto the western cape against their will.

55:03.45 – Brian Crane
Man.

55:12.63 – Phil Craig
Extract their tax resources and so on and send our people down there. You know that would be a very very difficult thing for them to do so I don’t worry about the AC. I think that the more radical elements like the yeah ef are more of a threat and so long as there’s enough of the state capacity in place in the western cap. The ef make. Absolute nonsense everywhere and they’ve caused mayhem throughout the country but they’ve tried it twice in the western cape and both times they’ve come away with a bloody nose and that’s really great and at this point in time so they’re reluctant to do it here because we still have relatively functional capacity so that so the police.

55:42.35 – Brian Crane
When.

55:47.28 – Phil Craig
Has effectively been able to contain them and to and and quite unceremoniously to the point where their pride was quite wounded as did the western cape people I have to say they tried to but had 1 particular place called bruckenfel where they yeah. Tried to close down a school and came off second best when the parents decided that they were going to physically deal with the ef. So um, you know you know I believe we can do this and I believe we can do it relatively peacefully. I think we can do it peacefully. There’ll be side pockets from the likes of that. Yeah, that doesn’t worry me of course. Yeah, yeah, yes, this is a dangerous place to be for anyone and and for someone like me who’s an activist of course it is more dangerous if I do get threats. you know I guess that goes with the territory I can’t say I like. Um. But equally like I certainly you’m not going to let it stop me fighting for a better future for my for my family and for my children and for those ah those around me and and you know this feels like yeah that that when they say listen yeah you you know you can only pick one one a hill to die on. This is my hill. You know I fell in love with this part of the world. My. I’ve married an African. Yeah, I know she doesn’t want to go anywhere. Her family goes back 400 years my children are african speaking this is our home and we’re going to fight for it and and and and and I hope that never comes to to a physical fight I don’t think it would come to a physical fight but but certainly we’re not going to be um, only bullied out of.

57:16.71 – Phil Craig
Pursuing Cape Independence by threats from people who were often quite unintelligent and and and and pretty vile. and yeah, we’ll see where it happens but I trust that I’ll be okay.

57:28.83 – Brian Crane
Good for you, good for you and takes a lot of courage really like ah yeah, um, what? What’s the last question I think we’ll wrap up but like the rate of firearm ownership or the rate of legal firearm ownership in South Africa coming from the states something like 40 to 45% of Americans legally own a gun. I looked it up in South Africa. I think it’s less than 10 percent. Um, is there? Yeah yeah, can you talk about that because I think that. Um yeah, if push came to shove like people are going to have to fight and I don’t know if they. Have the means to nor do they have the will to maybe maybe you disagree on that.

58:06.60 – Phil Craig
Yeah, well so so the interesting thing is that that that I don’t think the fight will be around cape independence I yeah and and and and and and and and I’ve had reason to see this because these stirrings are started and I’ve been quite It’s caught me 1 thing that’s caught me off guard I um. There’s a section then in 2018 um, 2014 there was there was anyway, there was 2 2 un reports one in 14181 around self-determination and one of them was a very interesting passage where where the the report said ah since 1945 almost every single conflict around the world has its source in the denial of self-determination and it was this argument and it was a very important theme because a lot of people would say look ah you wrote you know you want Cape Independence you’re you’re looking for trouble and and actually that the united nations were saying exactly the opposite of saying well, it’s not. People looking to assert their right to self-determination. It’s a problem. It’s when countries deny people the right to live out their existence as they see fit where problems start now for me that was kind of quite theoretical until I found myself in ah in in a very specific room. There were details too. But extraordinary powerful people and then i. Found myself in a room where people were openly talking about civil war in South Africa and it was shocking and it wasn’t in the context of cape independence it was in the context of the far. Yeah, the Anc effectively falling below 50% the e f.

59:20.65 – Brian Crane
Um.

59:36.71 – Phil Craig
Coming to Pat and then all of a sudden now you have the seizure of farmlands you have the claiming of property rights you have open? Yeah yeah, this person that’s threatening the genocide of whites and I can tell you that there is a mass arming going on of untraining of of of minorities. Understanding and that ironically isn’t in the western cape because our solution is cape independence. So so so is there a prospect of a civil war in South Africa yes there is is that because of cape independence. No, it’s not it’s because of the reasons for Cape Independence because in a country where 15000000 people and.

01:00:05.77 – Brian Crane
I know.

01:00:15.75 – Phil Craig
Are not black africans if you get ah if you get an african for african dictator that comes to power that threatens genocide to think that he’s going to have to deal with 15000000 people who really don’t like him very much um and you know that is not a prospect that I then any way appeals to me. It would be an absolute tragedy and. But actually the lesson is comes back and I when I heard those things and I was in there night then I was instantly reminded of that section in the united nations its didn’t I it’s it’s it’s it’s not taking the steps that causes the war you’ve got solutions in Cape Independence and other solutions around the country and you know if we don’t take timemiliest steps now whilst we can.

01:00:46.61 – Brian Crane
Go and.

01:00:55.44 – Phil Craig
And we deal with this democratically according to the constitution’s peaceful vote, then in 10 years time or 15 years time we’re going to deal with it in a far more unpleasant way.

01:00:57.32 – Brian Crane
Yeah.

01:01:03.76 – Brian Crane
Yeah, 100% yeah there’s only 2 ways to solve a disagreement is either through words or force and if words cease to work then you’re only left to force. It’s also part of the reason in my opinion to just generally be in favor of free speech which is that.

01:01:08.61 – Phil Craig
Yeah, yeah.

01:01:21.40 – Brian Crane
You need to allow people to be able to speak it out because if you shut down or shout down their point of view then they’re only left with the means of resolving their problems. cool. Thank you Phil. I appreciate your time very much. I loved the history lesson and the context as far as.

01:01:39.63 – Brian Crane
What’s happening here in the Western Cape I Love it here and would love to see the Western Cape be independent. What can people do if you’re South African and you’re a voter in the Western Cape who obviously supports the Referendum party if you’re outside of the Western Cape. And you’re South African or you’re not South African but you care about this part of the world. What can people do to help help your efforts and help the Referendum party.

01:02:00.14 – Phil Craig
Yeah, so but so well. So as you say in the western cape, vote for us outside of the western cave. You can still vote for us on the national ballot. and you know I often use the expression I often think of the western independent western cape as kind of like Israel for the jews. You know you don’t need to be. You don’t need to live in Israel to benefit from its existence as a jewish person and I think these ideological minorities and in the west in South Africa will benefit greatly from having an ideological homeland of this kind of western leaning section who but who only are ah are a. Haven and ah and and and a safe haven in a time of crisis. But you’ve also got an ally you’ve got a neighbor who basically is going to have the ability to project real force and so therefore you that yeah, that’s really really important and ironically outside There’s a big role for the international community. So in terms of the states I think there’s an awful lot to be done yeah. Why will the anc ultimately Grant Cape independence because it will get lent on by the by its international allies and the us probably more than anything else is is critical and I’ve been surprised actually I don’t know maybe you go but I but I would have thought they would have got to my door and and I haven’t. You know I’m um, I’ve been amazed at how slow the Us and other countries have been to recognize the strategic significance of Cape independence. I mean here while the Suez Canal is in control of bricks and you’ve got Southern Africa in control of bricks. Then here you have this liberation movement.

01:03:34.50 – Phil Craig
Ah, on the southern tip on the cape sea route. Ah you know it’s it’s that you know in and in 20 years time you know the us will have no allies here. So I’ve always been amazed that the US has taken such a handoff role and and and and and in your audience in the state I would say look.

01:03:42.29 – Brian Crane
Government.

01:03:50.90 – Phil Craig
Get involved that you know never mind our interest the Us has got interests here and and and and and it should be recognizing that because yeah, there’s a very very limited time window here to secure this western footprint and on the African continents and when it’s gone. It’s Gone. You know and and then and then you’ve got bricks controlling the suez canal and the Cape sea routes and and you know that that is a position that I don’t think is a healthy one for the world.

01:04:09.31 – Brian Crane
Yep.

01:04:17.50 – Brian Crane
Yeah, it’s a geo it’s a geopolitical imperative if for no other reason than that the policymakers in the Us should be paying attention to this and I think they just generally think the policymakers in the US by and large are left wing and that they would not um. Yeah, but I agree with you. I understand the points and I think if you look at a map the US needs to be actively supporting the Cape and independence. So um, thanks for your time I will include yeah links to the Facebook page and to you and cig and all the different.

01:04:45.37 – Phil Craig
Pleasure. Thank you.

01:04:56.72 – Brian Crane
Let’s call it. Um the web of activism yeah, that’s generally pushing for cape independence and we will be here for the election and hope for you to get your 7% all right. Thanks Phil bye bye.

01:05:05.74 – Phil Craig
Thanks Brian really appreciate it. Good chat all right pay.