Watch the full video of our conversation on the Spread Great Ideas YouTube channel.

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Full Transcript of Our Conversation

Introduction to Phil Craig and Cape Independence Advocacy Group

00:55.63 – Phil Craig

It’s a pleasure and thank you very much for the invitation. It’s great to be with you.

01:01.46 – Brian David Crane

Thank you. So tell me a little bit as far as what has happened recently with respect to your trajectory as far as Cape Independence Advocacy advocacy group goes and then your decision to. Start the Referendum party. How did that come about?

The Evolution of Cape Independence as a Mainstream Idea

01:17.51 – Phil Craig

Sure. So in many ways the referendum party is effectively a project of the advocacy group. We started the advocacy group about four years ago and with the view of progressing this idea of Cape independence which at that time was rarely a fringe idea. It’s much more mainstream now. And part of that was to lobby the provincial government which ironically is kind of ideologically aligned with us in terms of its core values. Ah, but wouldn’t see secession as the solution.

So yeah, there’s always this sort of slightly awkward relationship between ideological allies who want different outcomes. and and our intention was always to create sufficient pressure on the provincial government because unusually in the South African constitution the the premier the provincial premier has the authority to call a referendum. He doesn’t need the national government to either consent or to approve of that and so that was really our purpose and actually. Fairly early on we did get that consent. We did get an agreement on a referendum.

But ultimately the provincial party that leads the government in the Westernate reneged on that deal and was then unwilling and is now unwilling to call a referendum even though it knows that the majority of voters in the province. Favor a referendum and even more strongly ironically amongst its own voters as a party and and that effectively you know led us in a situation where we had no choice then but to to oppose them. Electorally we’re not trying to get power. We certainly end. We’re not likely to get anywhere near sufficient votes anyway, but that’s not our ambition. We’re just trying to create.

Strategies and Political Leverage for Cape Independence

02:51.21 – Phil Craig

Political leverage here and against the provincial government to to force it to effectively listen to its own voters.

02:58.99 – Brian David Crane

And so how does the parliamentary system work at a provincial level. So let’s assume based on your polls. What do you think you might get 10%, 20%, 5% but you know what? what are you able to achieve based on getting some sort of power inside of the western cape ah provincial government.

03:17.99 – Phil Craig

Sure? yeah, so look where we’re targeting 100000 votes which would be about 5% of the likely voters in this election. We only hosted the party in November. This has sort of happened quite and one of the fortunate things is the provincial government pursued some delaying tactics for some time which to a certain degree quite effectively because we sort of held.

Yeah, we sort of held off hoping that they would and or believing that they would honor their previous agreement, and so but that’s enough and we’re not fighting alone. There are other political parties who are already advocating for cape independence. So collectively we would like to think that we’d get about 7 or 8% of the vote in the western cape and that will be enough to force a referendum on cape independence. I’m fairly sure.

Coalition Dynamics and Electoral Goals for the Referendum Party

04:05.23 – Brian David Crane

And that would include driving around here in the Western Cape to PA weeks that would include Cape exit, they have a blue and white. yeah, like they’ve created like a Western Capes flag iconography and there’s also yellow and green one the VP, if I get the acronym right? Yeah, so the 3 of you would basically be able to have control of seven percent of would get 7 % of the vote. Yeah.

04:23.30 – Phil Craig

Yeah, yeah.

04:30.30 – Phil Craig

Yeah, perhaps more so you at the freedom front plus who are currently that’s the one with that so the green and yellow then, look actually in English it’s FF, plus freedom front plus but the holy it’s an African speaking party. So it’s far from the front which is just the same thing in AFs and that’s where the the VF comes from and they had about 3% in the last election, mason thought Cape independence at the Cape independence party which also uses the name.

Capepegs is, that’s quite a small party. They got about half a percent of the vote so they had about three and a half percent of the vote. There was another party, actually the cape colored congress, who supported cape independence in the last election. So last time out we got about 5.3% of the vote collectively and the referendum party didn’t exist.

05:13.48 – Brian David Crane

Are.

05:17.89 – Phil Craig

And under this occasion we need to do more and effectively we need to know we’ve got a PR system of a proportional representation is our system of government here. So effectively, we need to open up the possibility of what we would call kingmakers, either your provincial government now gets 47 or 48% it needs to find somebody else. Get it over the line and that very much is our strategy and because ideologically you know we would be a party that we were a single issue party but most of our members would be broadly sent to right and then yeah, the provincial government is sent to right? The freedom front classes center to right? And the freedom front plus the provincial government which is the democratic alliance are already in multiple coalition governments at municipal level throughout the province.

So we would be the natural allies and they would struggle to find other allies and us and ultimately you know we’re not pushing them very hard. We’re pushing them to do something. Polling says 79% of their own voters want so it becomes quite an easy deal and you know and one of the problems you’ve got with the democratic alliance which is the party that’s leading the provincial government is as a national party. 70% of its voters are outside of the western cape so you have this conflict of does it act in the best interests of the people in the Western Cape who elected it provincially or does the does the reality of of of political machinations mean it acts in the best interests of the DA at the democratic alliance of the DA and..

06:40.66 – Phil Craig

On the basis of its national interests and unfortunately that’s what we’ve got. Yeah the the political interests of the DA on a national scale and are taking precedent over the interests of the Western Cape people and the provincial election and that’s what’s kind of forced this situation. But I mean yeah, so it’s a relatively easy situation to unpick if we can get that critical political leverage.

The Role of International Law in Cape Independence

07:01.23 – Brian David Crane

It makes sense. Yeah, and so what has happened with the day as far as I was reading before the call they had put forward this provincial powers Bill or a devolution bill, I don’t remember the exact name of it. It hasn’t really. But like it hasn’t moved at the federal level or at the national level and so their middle ground is to try to advance more autonomy for the Western Cape while also maintaining that the Western Cape stays part of South Africa that’s their general strategy.

07:20.27 – Phil Craig

Yeah.

07:32.75 – Phil Craig

Yeah, look so effectively that their strategy is one of containment. And that bill actually is EO is really a wolf in sheep’s clothing that that bill particularly was designed to do and take the sting out of the Western Cape Peoples Bill. So that yeah and I was involved in, intricate in intimately in that I conceived the Western Cap Peoples Bill I led the legal team that wrote it and I consulted with the DA on their Western Cape Provincial Powers bill and we tried to negotiate very to compromises around those things and..

08:03.64 – Brian David Crane
Definitely then let me expand.

Challenges and Controversies in Devolution and Federalism Efforts

08:09.27 – Phil Craig

Look in essence the the DA support the devolution of powers absolutely in principle they support federalism so they’d likes South Africa to change from being a unitary state to or a quasi-federal unitary state into a full federal state and although in practice they’re not willing to do what it takes to get there so after the 2021 elections we formed with them.

In fact, it was our idea that we conceived this thing called the Western Cape devolution working group and what we said is look. Let’s get all of these centers together right? Political parties and civil society. All of these people believe that actual and a measure of autonomy is critical for the Western Cape and let’s not worry about the end result. Let’s not worry about whether you’re a devolutionist or a federalist or a secessionist. Let’s just start getting power away from Pretoria where it’s being abused and to the Western Cape and we worked with. I could say it was our project but the DA we involved the freedom front plus were involved to other political parties involved Afri forum solidarity and a whole lot of academics.

So it was a really powerful working group. The Western Cape governs the city of Cape Town. and out of that, but it is always the case. They’re difficult with the witch and you’ll understand this from around the world. They’ve been in power in the Western Cape for 15 years now. They’ve become the status quo and so therefore you know they don’t really want to turn the tables over. They don’t really want to push a radical agenda. It suits them to sort of go slowly.

09:39.16 – Phil Craig

And because actually they don’t really want the other status quo suits them quite well so we were pushing for much more radical. You know like they were elected in 2019 provinciality on a ticket of devolution. So they supported devolution, but they couldn’t deliver it and actually coming the end of this term, they said they were going to fight for the devolution of policing of rail and the end of the term. They’ve failed and they’ve failed spectacularly.

They’ve got no possible prospect of delivering either. They’ve asked and that and they’ve and they’ve been unceremoniously told no and we then sat down with them and said well look actually. International law which then is manifested in the South African constitution provides some really strong opportunities and for autonomy you know everybody has a right to self-determination. The..

10:26.72 – Phil Craig

South Africa recognizes that right? It’s in several international charities with South Africa as signed and ratified through parliament. So let’s use international law which we were much more familiar with secessionists. To drive the internally and we said look let’s start by writing a Western Cape peoples bill which claims the right to self-determination for the Western Cape people, and then you can go back for devolution or federalism, or whatever else on the basis of asserting a right as opposed to just asking and, as often the case worked with them.

Yeah were very cautious initially they were keen on the idea but ultimately just didn’t have the courage to bring the bill and in the final reckoning. We then sat down with the freedom front class who’d been waiting in the wings and they said well they’ll bring. And we said to the DA, look if you’re not going to vote for this bill which would deliver federalism which is supposed to be your policy and not ours and you’re not willing to vote for this bill then we’re going to make you vote against this bill and show people that actually you’re saying you want federalism but never mind, and you’re offering federalism as a compromise to secession.

But actually you’re not even willing to do what it takes to get federalism. So we wrote that bill and the freedom front plus said the table light bill and then suddenly the DA then quickly wrote this bill the western cape provincial powers bill the one that you’re talking about and said but here is a federalism bill now. Let’s pass this one instead and course.

11:42.47 – Brian David Crane

I..

11:49.27 – Phil Craig

And we looked at it and said well this isn’t a federalism bill. This is a devolution bill and it relies on the consent of the national government. You were just moving debt chairs around on the Titanic here. The bottom line is they haven’t given you for the last five years and they are about to give you it now and we said it’s fine. It was quite a good bill in that it created an obligation on the West. Cape to seek additional powers but they didn’t need to be passed alongside the Western Cape people’s bill which acquired the right to claim those additional powers and we said let’s pass the 2 bills together and they said no, so they’ve obviously pushed this bill.

And actually then got legal opinions from the parliament saying this bill actually won’t pass constitutional muster but I’ve just pressed ahead anyway and as you say this week the public hearings are going out. Head the ANC have been fighting to close those down so you have this strange situation now that the ANC and the DA are squaring off over cape independence where neither of them supported and this was a compromise bill from the DA.

So from our point of view. There’s a certain amount of sort of schadenfreude. Watching this, we support the Bill. We’re glad the DA brought this bill but actually their motivation was effectively to try and undermine the other bills and get out from this corner of the ah to try and placate the Western Cape people with something that wasn’t quite what people think it is and..

13:10.58 – Phil Craig

And the consequences, it’s blown up in their face and we want the bill Passed. but actually we want them to realize there is no happy solution here. There is going to be no, yeah, come by R with the ANC. You know you’re going to have to get real about this and actually you need to pass the Western K Peoples Bill. And actually more important that you need to call a Referendum and Cape Independence.

Even if you’re a federalist your best way to to negotiate federalism is to get a mandate for Independence and try and compromise with the national government as opposed to constantly go cap in hand. So That’s the kind of how the scenarios played out from our point of View. We We effectively.

13:37.60 – Brian David Crane

Yeah quote.

13:46.22 – Phil Craig

We’ve recognized devolution isn’t Possible. We’ve established that federalism isn’t possible because the DA aren’t willing to actually do what it takes which brings us right back to secession which is what we wanted all alone but effectively the middle ground has been taken off the table now and it’s Cape Independence or nothing effectively. And yeah. Guess that’s kind of okay with us too.

Implications of National Policies on Cape Independence

14:03.66 – Brian David Crane

And what happens if there is a great summary. Thank you so much for what happened in this election. Yeah, how do you see the numbers shaking out both at a federal level. Let’s say and you know so let’s assume you get to the 7% you then become the king maker in the Western Cape the DA is forced to push forward with, but basically push forward. You’ve created leverage against them. They’re in between a rock and a hard place they push at the federal level for this.

14:28.49 – Phil Craig

So..

14:38.58 – Brian David Crane

And you have what does it look like at the federal level like the Eff is the King Maker and the AC doesn’t make to 50% or the DA somehow forms some sort of what it looks like at the federal level post.

14:49.10 – Phil Craig

So the federal level you mean the national level the national government. Yeah, so look at that I think it’s fairly clear. What’s going to happen at the National level now and I think one of the ironies is that the pollsters don’t really dispute the reality.

14:55.58 – Brian David Crane

Thank you? Yes, yeah.

15:08.34 – Phil Craig

What happens is for their own reasons. Yeah politicians and many voters have kind of got their heads in the sand because the reality is really really uncomfortable. So what’s likely to happen is the ANC are almost certainly going to fall below 50% which is in theory what all of the sort of the opponents of the ANCs say they want. The danger is that right now the ANC is a really corrupt terrible government totally incompetent. Yeah, but in real terms I’m going to be careful with my words.

Yeah, it’s destroyed the livelihoods of people in the western who know we’re sitting with economic growth all over South Africa. I should say I have seen an anemic economic growth. Yeah colossal unemployment is a terrible crime. So they’re certainly not benign in that thing but ultimately ideologically they’re relatively benign. They’re not calling for genocide. They’ve turned down expropriation of all property. Yeah, that sort of the really ridiculous Symbolab We Esque policies they’ve averted now they’re going to fall below 50 when they fall but 50% they are going to have to make up their votes and they’re going to look for their votes.

On the ideological left they are going to be forced into government with the people who are advocating for these extraordinary extreme policies and the EF as the third largest party which is a breakaway from the ANC is the biggest threat and what of the ANC calling what are the EF calling for the privatization.

16:38.89 – Phil Craig

The nationalization of all state-owned industries. The nationalized objects of major industries. Obviously the state-owned ones are obviously already nationalized. And the expropriation of all property rights. In other words, all property belongs to the state and when asked by the BBC, they’re not ruling out the genocide or the slaughter of white people just yet.

So I mean we’re talking about a genocidal organization and that is deeply racist far extreme left. And they are the most likely partners. So the ANC are going to become infinitely more dangerous and after, I would much rather have them at 51% than have them at 47% because actually at 51% they are relatively benign. They’re a disastrous government. But I mean we’re not talking about total total Zimbabwe implosion if they end up with the eight with the EF that’s what we are talking about.

We are talking about a catastrophic failure of South Africa and quite possibly you know with murderous intent to go with that, on the other side you’ve got this fight and what we’ve got on the other side is you’ve got all of these groups Allying, under what they call the multi multiparty charter trying to summon up enough votes. But the reality is they are going to fall woefully short the current polling has them at.

18:09.17 – Phil Craig

36% they were at 33% three years ago so they’ve managed to make 3 points up and those parties are deluding themselves and still to this day four months from the election. They’re 15 points short of a majority and are claiming that they can still get it, which is just absolute insanity. And what’s worse is they’re convincing people that this is possible, because people are absolutely desperate. The danger is that people are taking stock of what they really should be doing and the reality is, that South Africa has a strong ideological divide, that runs through – you’ve got one part of the population that effectively is an African nationalistic Africa for Africans racially driven left-wing. Basically what’s race-based policy. What’s the centralization of control communist effectively? But without some of the trimmings and on the other side you’ve got this population. This relatively western leaning population that leans towards the free market that wants genuine non-racialism.

Socio-economic Considerations and the Vision for Cape Independence

18:58.41 – Brian David Crane

Communist.

19:15.61 – Phil Craig

And the only province in South Africa that always votes for that is the Western Cape. So that’s where Cape independence comes from. It’s kind of like well okay, we can’t do anything about the rest of South Africa because people are voting for that government. However, bad it is that our elections are broadly free and fair and, in the Western Cape for 30 years. The majority of people have never once voted for that government.

We’re not electing it and the only reason we’re having all of those disastrous policies hanging over our head is because we’re choosing to remain part of South Africa and if we opt out of South Africa we walk away from all of those problems and that’s the essence of Cape independence and obviously it’s very frustrating watching the mainstream political parties who obviously have great clouds and influence kind of dismissing Cape independence as not necessary as don’t worry, we’re going to save them.

And one of the interesting things that we’ve seen is the exact scenario that they want to play out. They’re not even going to get there but it. But if we saw it in Johannesburg in 2021 they actually got the ANC to 34% of the vote the EF to 11%, so that left-wing coalition. Suddenly only got 45% of the vote and what they now call the multi-party charter got 46% of the vote. And that was then hailed as this massive breakthrough. The reality is that multi-party charter is so diverse. They can’t agree on anything and the net result is.

20:42.72 – Phil Craig

Two years later Hannesburg has turned into an absolute disaster service deliveries totally collapsed and the DA itself then called for fresh elections in 2023 saying this city is literally ungovernable, and all of its people are suffering so you have this remarkable situation where the policy that failed abjectly in Johannesburg, and they are now proposing as that as the sort of the other.. There’s the fix all solution for South Africa and yeah it’s insane, unfortunately.

21:13.82 – Brian David Crane

Yeah. So anecdotally coming back here we spent five months here and two years ago now we’re back and at the federal level what you see is. Both the failure of Transnet and the failure of Eskom as the 2 largest. The 2 most glaring from what I’ve read with Cape Town and you have this strife in the red sea and it would seem a glorious opportunity for these ports in South Africa to make a ton of money.

And handle additional cargo freight and the port of Cape Town can’t handle it the Porta Durban can’t handle it. And Eskom which is also a state-owned enterprise, doesn’t seem to be able to get out from underneath load shedding. I was just watching an interview with Andre De Reuter and read his excellent book truth to power and I think that at the federal level it’s clear this incompetence is widespread. It’s theft.

One thing I like about the South Africans is they come up with these euphemisms to sort of soften the blow of things state capture is ah the way that theft is called and load shedding is when the power is off but I think that yeah, so like inside of South Africa.

22:31.66 – Brian David Crane

It seems like what’s happening is that there’s also this term semi-gration, where you have people from Joburg who are moving down to the Western Cape, they’re selling their property, like retirees or is it people who are working age like who’s driving this semi-gration.

Demographic Shifts and Political Realities in the Western Cape

22:49.90 – Phil Craig

Well I think everybody so ultimately I think yeah, it’s an extraordinary situation if you start to look at this at the skilled population of South Africa everybody is busy making a plan. there’s a saying in South Africa, a border marker planner for the afraid that day, whenever there’s a problem. We’ll find a solution and at this point in time everybody is sitting at it with what they have seen the statistic art member.

The percentage of skilled people are thinking leaving this country is absolutely astronomical. It’s said to be more than half of them and I think people are saying well what do I do? Do I go and move to? Yeah Europe do I go move to the states do I move to Canada do I move to Australia or do I move to South to to the Western Cape and in the Western Cape in some ways you know you can buy yourself a little bit more time.

Yeah. The Western Cape we have to be absolutely, I so wished it wasn’t the case because I live here and all my assets are here. Definitely has not got a rosy long-term future. You know at the end of the day South Africa will catch the Western Cape up. But for now because we have this other government that at least? Manages relatively, competently and honestly and tries to appoint on merit and has strong fiscal disciplines that at least in some of the areas we’ve created a relatively functional society and so much more functional than the rest of South Africa that many people are saying well look I’m just going to move to the Western gate.

24:13.98 – Phil Craig

So for example, a lot of the things that the Western Cape is doing are things that can help itself so you know 80 or 90% of the jobs in South Africa are being made in the in the Western Cape even though we represent 11% of the population and the Western Cape. I have already made steps. So it’s so it’s busy creating its own electricity in 5 years time load shedding blackouts as you say the proper term blackouts will be finished in the Western Cape because the local governments have just basically, suffer generating their ownership. They’re even allowed to by law. They’ve ignored the law.

They’re gone out to the market and they’re basically going to fill in the gap and create electricity and you have this resilience, so the Western Cape now, offers and people say well it’s like a completely different country and it is like a completely different country. Literally the way the roads are kept the way the hospitals work the way that the schools work. It doesn’t mean that we’re not without problems because we absolutely do have problems, but people are then moving from upcountry to this more functional society. And hoping that somehow and that they can get outrun communism. But the reality is that you’re and I’m using the word communism in its broader sense.

25:27.97 – Phil Craig

Reality is you can’t outrun communism because what follows you is all of the people who voted for communism too and that’s exactly what’s happening in the Western Cape. And the poorest province in South Africa is the Eastern Cape which is next door. It’s only ever been governed by the ANC, give the ANC overwhelming endorsement in these elections without a shadow of doubt and yet in the last decade, about 15% of its population has moved to the Western Cape to run away from what it’s voted for and when it arrives those people, they settle land illegally in the Western Cape.

On a mass scale and we know from polling when they get here. They vote for exactly what they’ve run away from and that is and we’re seeing this serious demographic shift of the population in the West government. I’ve no issue with the race part of that. Have an issue with the ideological part of that because eventually that the western cape is going to be a vendor voting for communism and that’s the end and that’s why Cape independence is so important.

At the end of the day that is actually just saying look for people who vote differently. We’ve got to close the borders now. We’ve got to seal ourselves off. And be able to vote sensibly for you know, non-racialism for these markets but to create this functional state and then after that perhaps we can move back and we can help Africa and we can. Yeah we can. We can play a development role. But first of all, we have to save ourselves.

26:52.72 – Phil Craig

Because in 10 years time the Western Cape will look like the rest of South Africa if we don’t get Cape independence.

The Future of Cape Independence: Opportunities and Challenges

26:56.68 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, it’s a similar dynamic in the US where California is effectively a third world country. You have the uber rich you have a widespread the middle class has totally hollowed out the people who voted for these policies left wing. Policies for lack of a better way to put it. They leave California because it’s become untenable. They move to other states and then they vote consistently like they voted in California and bring the same failed policies from California to elsewhere in the US Colorado is an example of this. There’s a lot of talk internally of how to.

27:20.40 – Phil Craig

Yeah.

27:32.21 – Brian David Crane

Keep Californians from voting for you from moving to your country so you can sort of insulate yourself from this. It’s what you’re describing with the Eastern Cape from voters from elsewhere and in South Africa as they come to the Western Cape so then in.

27:40.91 – Phil Craig

And..

27:49.42 – Brian David Crane

I think it’s interesting as well. So people understand this like the demographics inside of the Western Cape versus let’s call it elsewhere in South Africa and also because you have these 2 policies that I’m aware of. Like BB BE I might get the acronyms wrong. But this broad-based ah black empowerment BB BE.

28:09.38 – Brian David Crane

And you have effectively like a racist procurement setup where if you are a state-owned enterprise. You need to buy according to you know, racial characteristics of the owners of the companies and so a big part of.

28:15.54 – Phil Craig

Yeah.

28:26.53 – Brian David Crane

What’s happened in Cape independence from what I was reading is it’s actually these groups of people called colors that are very pro. Cape independence and very pro referendum party because they’re kind of in the worst of both worlds right? Like they don’t get any of the “benefits” of BB and..

28:38.90 – Phil Craig

Yeah.

28:44.66 – Phil Craig

Sure. The Western Cape is demographically very different. Ironically, it’s the most racially diverse province in South Africa so broadly speaking the population of the Western Capers. We currently stand about 46% what we would call colored and..

28:44.68 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, do you want to talk about that for a minute?

29:04.35 – Phil Craig

People who are brown-skinned and often, and they will largely be an amalgamation of the original koy and the San indigenous people who over time will have then mixed with Malay settlers with European settlers. Now it’s very difficult to say you know what in there. But that’s a relation group that is probably the most indigenous to Southern Africa and certainly to the Western Cape.

They were the majority this point in time they’re sort of slightly decreasing in relative terms but they’re about 46% at the moment. Then you have the white population at about 16 % and then you have the black population which is about 20% and there is a traditional black population but in 1994, the black population was about 20% and that’s doubled to about 40% as we currently speak. So at this point in time. It’s relatively healthy.

29:56.31 – Brian David Crane

In the Western Cape. Yeah.

29:59.70 – Phil Craig

In the Western Cape. Yeah. This is through migration of people coming from running away from the Eastern Cape and look for good reason. The Eastern Cape is a disaster so I always have to really careful for I have absolutely no issue with people migrating for a better life, I did it myself, I’m not native to the to the Western Cape. I think it just used to be done in an orderly fashion. Legally and obviously without destroying. Yeah, what’s there when you get there? And in terms of Cape independence.

It’s got strong support amongst white people. It’s got the stronger support amongst colored people and then it has a sizeable majority of but of. A size or minority of black people. Because we mustn’t think people vote according to race. Obviously you’ll have a correlation and but I mean there’s plenty of so center right? You know, really intelligently minded black voters who can see exactly the same as we would see and there’s equally plenty of. Crazy left-wing white people who are absolutely bonkers. So there’s sort of an exact correlation with race.

But there’s some correlation, when it comes to policies. People just.. If they haven’t lived in South Africa, they just have no idea of what goes on so we have these 2 policies effectively at. A broad based black economic empowerment basically means that any business you want to conduct race becomes a really strong determining factor and you know who you buy from as soon as your company gets over.

31:27.31 – Phil Craig

Ah, very very small size. You must buy from people that are black owned. You must sell to people that are black owned. You must employ people of a certain race. There are race quotas for what your employers must not, your management team must be a certain rate and it’s absolutely insane beyond and in an extreme example. So let’s go to something that happens. It really happens you can Google it and, but it just shows the craziness. So now we find ourselves a children’s senior. 17 – 18 years old in a senior representative rugby team playing for your province. You’re now playing for your province and what happens is now.

There’s a quota saying in the picture all times there must be 10 black people. Must be 5 white people now in one of the senior games now what happens is the subs have been used up all of a sudden. One of the black players gets injured and there isn’t another black player to put on the pitch so they take one of the white players and and bring on an extra white player.

And the team wins the game but gets disqualified because even though it was replacing an injured player, they had too many people of the wrong race and therefore literally got disqualified from a senior level competition that is the insanity. Of where we are with race, therefore that’s what we’re fighting against. We’re not fighting against hang on a second apartheid was terrible and we need to create a fairer society because I..

32:49.55 – Phil Craig

Apartsite was terrible and we absolutely need to create a fairer society. Yeah, it’s the insanity with which we do that. How do we create a fairer society by creating a vibrant economy which creates work by creating education by uplifting people? That ultimately we create opportunities for people and we get away from our terrible Past. We don’t do it by taking the very worst aspects of apartheid and repeating them again.

33:10.65 – Brian David Crane
Yeah.

Addressing Socio-economic Inequalities and Policies

33:15.94 – Phil Craig

Ad Nauseum which is exactly where we are now and that’s what we’re trying to get away from.

33:20.57 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, is there a push at all at the federal level. What is the history of some of these bills as far as you know so you had the national the national party there was this transition from the national party to the A and C under Mandela. When did these policies come into effect. They came into effect in the 90’s like and is there any talk at all at the federal level of actually trying to get rid of these or because they’re to me the root of a lot of the stuff which is like very anti meritocratic right? I like it. It’s basically race based. It’s not meritocratic.

33:48.79 – Phil Craig

Yeah, totally against you.

33:57.36 – Brian David Crane

And it’s racist like if you want to point at a policy. It’s like these things are purely racist. is there any talk of scrapping them probably not because the A and C benefits the most from it.

34:05.62 – Phil Craig

Exactly the opposite they’re being strengthened every year, so every year right now they’re talking about strengthening so what? These policies came in under Tarabo and Becky. They came in the late 90’s – early 2000 and what happens is it’s a classic case of left-wing politics. So what happens is you come with this idea which isn’t economically sound but ideologically you convince yourself that we have to do this because it’s the right thing to do if you implement your policy. It’s a total disaster. It has exactly the opposite effect of what you want, you should sit down and go okay, well that didn’t work but you sit down and go well, we just didn’t do enough of that.

So then you ramp up the regulations a bit more and then you sit and then you come along and you say, hang on a second. The boards of our top hundred companies are all you known, 50% white but actually white people make up 16% of the population. Well they get well. But then we must have stricter laws. We must have fines, we must threaten people with prison, nobody sits down and says well what percentage of you know, University Degrees went to accountants.

Yeah I mean that, and logically speaking well hang on a second you know if we have a really fair system then you know the sort of composition of Financial, Senior and Financial Chief, Financial Officers should be representative of the criminal, La Kreme of the people that came out of accounting.

35:31.44 – Phil Craig

We don’t have any of that. We just round well there you go? Why is it that white people are just continuing to be racist. This is the system. Let’s do more of it or that’s not strict enough. So right now we’re busy ramping up. We’ve just changed last year affirmative action to literally impose in every single industry. We now have quotas. If you have a fish and chip shop, there is a quota for what your race composition must be for your staff for your fishion chip shop. Yeah, if you happen to be mine. You have a different quota.

If it happens to be a hotel and you literally have to go into your industry and stay in my workforce. How should I? And actually now it’s at senior level and my junior staff must be in this ratio. My middle management must be in this ratio. My senior management. My shareholders must be in this ratio. It is absolutely insane now on Earth. Do you run businesses in that environment? I mean it’s insanity. Total insanity.

36:26.30 – Brian David Crane

And these billionaire class of A and C associated politicians or business leaders from what I had understood. They made their fortunes predominantly by getting supported at point to some of these boards that needed to comply with some of this stuff. Getting their finger into, they got on not because of merit they got on because they were black and they were like okay cool now we need to have a blackboard member and we have this one that can nominally serve and we pay them if that is that accurate.

36:51.28 – Phil Craig

Yeah, no, absolutely. So what do you end up with, you start off with a system where you’ve got all of these boards you create a set of rules that you now must have X amount of black people on the board. Otherwise you can’t do business with the state. You can’t do business with anybody else. And now suddenly then you have this elite class of people who say well look there I’m the..

But yeah, so you have the elite shareholder in McDonald’s. At the end of day at one point I could up the numbers right? But Sorama Porter who is now our president, who was a union leader, so this should be the last person to be sitting on something like 250 boards now you know it is rich beyond your wildest imagination. I mean who could possibly sit on 250 boards. What are you there for if you’re not there for anything other than to tick a box you create this system where we create the rules then you fill the rules and you have these people who are just you know. It’s all about extraction now.

Yeah. Now how do we create a system where we extract value out of the economy and therefore that’s had a totally destructive effect because of what happens with people. Now you’re just deterring entrepreneurship. You’re not starting new companies. The name of the game is well how do I leech off somebody else’s hard work. How do I leverage my race to to and actually what we’ve seen and one of the big frustrations is all of a sudden white people who’ve been excluded from the economy start to do better and better because they’re forced into entrepreneurial environments.

38:11.29 – Brian David Crane

And Depth brushes my stress. Yeah from that strength? Yeah.

38:18.20 – Phil Craig

They? They can’t rely on the government so they become increasingly in investitive increasingly competitive because the market makes them, so they literally can’t survive otherwise and on the opposite effect you, you’re creating this class of people who just become less than you know, never build anything, never do anything. Yeah that because actually.

38:30.56 – Brian David Crane

But right, but so yeah.

38:37.45 – Phil Craig
What they end up being is a means of extraction and that’s how our economy is layered and obviously again, that’s a generalization. There’s some brilliant black people out there who were great. It’s not everybody but you have this elite political caste who are parasites. Then today we have tens of thousands of parasites.

38:50.70 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, yes.

38:57.10 – Phil Craig

In our economy we find when you look at state capture as you say which is just theft. We find people paying you know Twenty Thousand Rand for a wooden handled MOP you know which is like a hundred rans I mean what’s done there were 20000 random dollars, a thousand dollars and for a wood, for a wooden handled mop I mean it’s..

39:10.98 – Brian David Crane

Thousand dollars yeah..

39:16.33 – Phil Craig

Yeah, you know where why? well they bought it for $1 and they marked up 999 they were the preferred supply. You had to buy from them because they were black. It’s insane. Yeah.

Conclusion and Reflections on Cape Independence

39:29.15 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, it makes an analogy. It’s analogous with DEI in the states where you have ironically the group that it’s white men who are.

39:34.81 – Phil Craig

Ship it.

39:46.87 – Brian David Crane

Excelling under DEI because they’re the only ones who have received and are able to recalibrate from negative feedback and if you’re in one of the protected classes that functions under DEI If you are you know a Lesbian black who knows..

40:01.64 – Phil Craig

Uhmm..

40:06.40 – Brian David Crane

And you’ve never gotten critical feedback in your life then as soon as you get into the workforce you wind up with this somebody telling you that your that your work product isn’t good and you take it as a personal attack on yourself and you think it’s based on race and they’re just like no what you’ve what you’ve done is not good. So what’s happening in the US. With the EI and these fortune 500 companies they’re actually hiring more white men particularly they came out of the military because they’re the only ones that can take constructive feedback and it’s what you’re describing with white South Africans here. I think the last question I’m left with is what like this group of talented white South Africans. I was looking at the demographic trends before we started. They’re still emigrating. There is sort of like a hollowing out of people in their let’s say 20s to 40s that have. That have left or that have a second passport and are like actively looking at leaving um is that accurate?

41:03.29 – Phil Craig

No look, absolutely the population I think the statistics is scary, and we should say it’s not just white people that are leaving skill people are leaving you it Indian colored black. You know we were hollowing out skill people because effectively you’re sitting in this environment where you were…

41:11.85 – Brian David Crane

Yeah.

41:22.30 – Phil Craig

You know our currency is worthless particularly if you’re from that look. It is slightly different even from ethnic minorities white colored or Indian, then you are disadvantaged compared to other people and you start to look and say, never mind me I may be fine, but what about my children? what world do they grow up in India in the day? Yeah, it becomes really difficult.

41:35.47 – Brian David Crane

Yeah.

41:41.69 – Phil Craig

Now that they can’t play for the sports team because of their own color, they can’t get into university because of their own color. They can’t get a job in certain sectors because of their color, and eventually at some point you go well look, I could just go live somewhere else, and I don’t have any of this, that course is the great failing because the state thing is well, hang on a second but..

41:43.30 – Brian David Crane

Is..

42:01.57 – Phil Craig

You advance, you benefited from apartheid and now obviously there’s almost nobody left that was voting for apartheid in the workforce with 30 generations with 30 years password more than a generation past that. Yeah, it’s absolutely insane. So if you want to just somehow and. Have a quota against 70 year old men then fair enough, but actually to be discriminating against children that were born 25 years after apartheid finished you know is crazy and and of course people are leaving on mass.

There’s a ratio between skilled labor and unskilled labor. So we’ve got this massive VAT of unskilled labor which we just can’t absorb into our workforce so we have, unemployment rate at about 45% yeah and amongst youngsters up nearly 70% yeah, it’s catastrophic. And it’s entirely self-inflicted yes South Africa we got minimal wealth. It’s got assets. It’s got space. It’s got infrastructure and yeah, but yeah world-class institutions which are all getting degraded. But I mean they’re kind of still have we got yeah massive real network universities.

43:00.55 – Brian David Crane

Amazing weather.

43:13.77 – Phil Craig

Yeah the mineral wealth probably more than most other nations on earth, South Africa doesn’t have to be a poor country. It’s vast, it’s a million square hectares and we’ve got a population of 70000000. I mean it’s South Africa should be absolutely sailing. And it’s not purely because of self-inflicted policy South Africa is a man-made disaster.

43:36.74 – Brian David Crane

And your vision for the Western Cape if and when it’s able to secede what does that look like it’s on the model of a Singapore or a Hong Kong or what does it? It’s non racialism. But what is it? What does it look like as far as what? What do you see?

43:53.17 – Phil Craig

Yeah, so look what? What do we see? So first of all, effectively what South Africa should have been in the rainbow nation. So we say right? I’m going for a second. We just close the border. We let us know how we’ve been voting for the last thirty years. We carry on voting broadly the same way we create a market oriented economy. We propose merit, we fix our schools, our education, we have ah we have a decent tax regime. We encourage investment but obviously South Africa is very anti-business now.

All of a sudden we’re pro-business. We’ve sort of the last ten years the Western Cape has an average economic growth of 1.1% and the average population growth of one point six. Yeah, everybody is getting poorer suddenly, the Western cave should be having a 10% growth rate like Rwandan you know it’s got ports. It’s got infrastructure links. It’s sort of really skilled, it’s still a skilled workforce. It’s got a lot of people that speak English extraordinarily well, it’s got a fintech sector for the Agri sector.

Do I mean it’s it’s it’s really good for renewable energy that there’s all sorts of things that the Western Cape has got you see suddenly just by taking away all of those bad policy choices. We suddenly? unlock the potential of these people and that you have this massive diaspora of people who are desperate to come back to Africa’s a magnificent place to live. Katelin even now is voting. What’s the second best city in the world? People. Love the Western Cape.

45:21.14 – Phil Craig

People will come back there when they can come here and prosper and all of a sudden it’ll become and we laugh not because it becomes the economic lion. I don’t know what? What do we do? What do we call it but we create an economist often say yeah Western Cape becomes this giant special economic zone. Here we are in the African continent and it kind of links East meets West and suddenly you have this special place and in many ways like Singapore but on steroids.

Singapore is 700 square kilometers, if it fits 50 times or 40 times over or more into into the Western Cape and, but we like Singapore we’re on this major shipping route and like Singapore we have these. There are 3 race groups so there are some similarities with and with Singapore but I think that the Western Cape will outperform Singapore or Hong Kong. Yeah it became its own entity and I think all of that pent up frustration.

All of that potential. That’s been up. I wanted to think of the Afrikaans word. Sorry but you’re pressed down and suppressed will suddenly burst forth and come to life and it will just be an extraordinary success because of that.

46:44.20 – Phil Craig

Brilliant for Southern Africa. I think it will become an inspiration that spills over into other countries because once you split South Africa up and now you’re left with your people say I think Elon Musk tweeted the other day. Why don’t we take a country and a half and let the communists have one half and the capitalists of the other half and come back and see what’s happened. But let’s do it here and that’s exactly what we’re going to see there all of a sudden.

The African government is going to have absolutely no excuses because Western Cape. Well they had apartheid they had this. They had that. All of the things that we’ve had they’ve had so how? So suddenly if we’re growing 10% and we become a first world country then all of the excuses are gone for staffing. It’s so obviously self-inflicted. They’re not even the government will be able to dwell. I mean it will of course but it shouldn’t be able to deny it.

47:30.30 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, and I I think as well one thing you alluded to is I think the property market here would go bananas because all of a sudden you feel super comfortable putting capital into the country. Because right now as a foreign investor if you look at it. You have capital controls to bring money in there if it might not be actively talked about but there is the specter of land expropriation.

You need strong property rights as the basis for a functioning democracy and a functioning ah capitalistic economy. I think property would go because of the weather and the terrain and the like the microclimates that are here and the ability to grow things and yeah, the it’s it’s it’s got it. Ah on paper. It’s got so much going for it.

48:22.93 – Phil Craig

Okay.

48:24.65 – Brian David Crane

That is heartbreaking to see when it’s not being capitalized on I think so.

48:27.86 – Phil Craig

Absolutely and there’s a colossal human suffering, obviously we know we are both living in a relatively privileged part of that and there are people who are living in terrible conditions. And actually the beauty thing is without us having to resort to ridiculous left-ing. Policies we can very very quickly lift those people out of poverty you know in the day that it really isn’t rocket science. It’s the potential is overwhelming even when you talk of housing and we’ve got these people come and they’ll see, they come to cap and they’ll see all of these.

Shanty towns and vast townships of now like, first of all, let’s say most of those are obviously set up illegally and that shouldn’t have happened. But even outside of that one of the things that we have is our laws are so stupid in almost every way we always find a way to lose. So now what’s the problem? Why can’t we create housing but it’s impossible in South Africa to remove an unpaying tenant literally impossible. So now you have all of these people living in desperate circumstances. The private sector is building zero houses. You know you’ve got a million customers.

49:22.17 – Brian David Crane

And..

49:33.74 – Phil Craig

Private sector would love to build houses but nobody nobody is building houses. The only people who are building houses for that sector are the government who builds them for free and gives them away and because the private sector won’t because the government prevents the private sector from getting paid. And who’s going to invest in housing stock and if you can’t remove it, then you have this massive cultural non-payment.

These are the things that are just so easy to fix if somebody could just apply 1 modicum of common sense and say well look clearly. We need housing. We’ve got this chronic housing shortage. We’ve got land. We’ve got developers. We’ve got everything. We’ve got capital and all we haven’t got is a workable business model because the law that’s meant to protect people is doing more harm to them than anything that could possibly happen at the hands of a private landlord.

50:24.25 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, I think that there’s a lot of threads that you just touched on the one that I have left with I emailed you about this one in the lead up to the interview which is – The transition following Mandela with Mandela and following it. Why did the national party? Why there was this surface area that was left for the ANC to latch onto. You have a left-wing communist. In its roots a political party that’s going to come into power and you have what, why? Why were things like Transnet or um, Eskom or South African Airlines why were they not privatized ahead of the end of apartheid.

51:09.94 – Phil Craig

Sure and look so I have to say first of all I was never year during that period of time. I came to South Africa and in 2004, but I can tell you and it’s one of the misnomers economically the national party was far left not far right? and..

51:26.49 – Brian David Crane

Okay.

51:28.61 – Phil Craig

So the reason is that the national party of the AC with 2 peas in a pod. They both believed in the centralization of power so therefore they were on the same page and when you look back? Yeah people weren’t for me. It was quite shocking to come here. So for example, let’s take a sector like farming in the Western Cape. Now the farming sector is a major opportunity here about 50% of farms in the Western Cape are effectively fallow because they’re no longer viable under the current system they need to be changed because they came to be under the national party. What did you have for the national party? Let’s take it.

I live in a grape area, fruit area and vineyards all around me at what happened to grape farmers. There was one seller. You sold your grapes to Cara fear. Ah, the cape wine cooperative ah at a fixed price. So if you lived near me, you grew your grapes and you got X per ton. The price was fixed. You always made a profit. You delivered your one product to your one supplier, got paid a set amount which you knew and every single farmer made money because there wasn’t even a hint of a market economy in there and obviously at.

That was how the national party worked now because they were so efficient. They made it work very very well. It was incredibly efficient and so for them privatization was an anathema that the day, they no more believed in privatization than the ANC. The difference was they were very good at running things.

52:50.48 – Brian David Crane

Yes.

52:58.90 – Phil Craig

People will say well look the national party was corrupt that I’m sure on the basis that politicians every real world are corrupted. I think if they were the national party killed that they go might have stolen the golden egg or every third golden egg and the difference is the ANC. Just..

52:58.63 – Brian David Crane

But my work. Here.

53:16.78 – Phil Craig

Kills the chicken and looks around to see who’s going to provide the next one. There was no will for it and I think there were parties like for example, the forerunner to the DA who were trying to push for a federal system and push for change. But they were just outvoted and the national party and the AC to a certain extent had elements where there were two peas in a pot.

53:37.70 – Brian David Crane

Got it? Yeah, okay, so this has been amazing. I think we’ve covered a lot of different topics. What is the message? What? I think there’s 2 parts to your message. One part is the Western Cape needs to get out of South Africa asap. The second part is once that happens, you would like to see the Western Cape be marketed. Friendly welcome to talented people, skilled people from all over the world and to create. What do you call it? The lion of Africa down here on the tip is that right?

54:11.11 – Phil Craig

Absolutely an economic lion.

54:15.25 – Brian David Crane

Economic line. Thank you. Do you ever worry about your safety in South Africa like André de Ruyter left. That is a concern for you as far as you’re being an activist and talking about these sorts of things. Because I think that’s part of the rationale with the DA is they don’t necessarily believe that the A and C would adhere to or listen to a referendum vote.

54:39.29 – Phil Craig

Sure. Ironically, I don’t think as we alluded to earlier the ANC aren’t really the problem. I think the ANC through gritted teeth and very begrudgingly would listen to a referendum vote I think that the ANC has got enough of that legacy. And a sort of a view of itself, and a place in the wider world in terms of its history that it would find it extraordinarily difficult suddenly to become the imperial power and effectively colonize the Western Cape nobody wants us here. But we’re going to force ourselves onto the Western Cape against their will.

55:03.45 – Brian David Crane

Man.

55:12.63 – Phil Craig

Extract their tax resources and so on and send our people down there. That would be a very very difficult thing for them to do so I don’t worry about the AC. I think that the more radical elements like they are more of a threat and so long as there’s enough of the state capacity in place in the Western Cape. The F make, absolute nonsense.

Everywhere and they’ve caused mayhem throughout the country but they’ve tried it twice in the Western Cape and both times they’ve come away with a bloody nose and that’s really great and at this point in time so they’re reluctant to do it here because we still have relatively functional capacity so that so the police.

55:42.35 – Brian David Crane

When..

55:47.28 – Phil Craig

Has effectively been able to contain them and to quite unceremoniously to the point where their pride was quite wounded as did the Western Cape people. I have to say they tried to but had one particular place called Bruckenfel where they tried to close down a school and came off second best, when the parents decided that they were going to physically deal with the F. So I believe we can do this and I believe we can do it relatively peacefully. I think we can do it peacefully.

There’ll be side pockets from the likes of that. That doesn’t worry me of course. Yes, this is a dangerous place to be for anyone and for someone like me who’s an activist of course it is more dangerous if I do get threats. I guess that goes with the territory I can’t say I like. But equally, I certainly you’re not going to let it stop me fighting for a better future for my family and for my children, and for those around me and when they say listen, you can only pick one hill to die on.

This is my hill. You know I fell in love with this part of the world. I’ve married an African. I know she doesn’t want to go anywhere. Her family goes back 400 years my children are African speaking this is our home and we’re going to fight for it and I hope that never comes to to a physical fight. I don’t think it would come to a physical fight but certainly we’re not going to be only bullied out of.

57:16.71 – Phil Craig

Pursuing Cape Independence by threats from people who were often quite unintelligent and and and and pretty vile. We’ll see where it happens but I trust that I’ll be okay.

57:28.83 – Brian David Crane

Good for you, and takes a lot of courage really like, what? What’s the last question I think we’ll wrap up but like the rate of firearm ownership or the rate of legal firearm ownership in South Africa coming from the states something like 40 to 45% of Americans legally own a gun. I looked it up in South Africa.

I think it’s less than 10 percent. Can you talk about that because if push came to shove like people are going to have to fight and I don’t know if they, have the means to nor do they have the will to maybe you disagree on that.

58:06.60 – Phil Craig

Yeah, well so the interesting thing is that I don’t think the fight will be around Cape independence. I’ve had reason to see this because these stirrings are started, and it’s caught me one thing that’s caught me off guard. There’s a section then in 2018, 2014 there was two UN reports one in 14181 around self-determination and one of them was a very interesting passage where the report said, since 1945, almost every single conflict around the world has its source in the denial of self-determination and it was this argument. It was a very important theme because a lot of people would say look, you wrote that you want Cape Independence, you’re looking for trouble and the United Nations were saying exactly the opposite of saying well, it’s not.

People looking to assert their right to self-determination. It’s a problem. It’s when countries deny people the right to live out their existence as they see fit where problems start now for me that was kind of quite theoretical until I found myself in a very specific room. There were details too. But extraordinary powerful people and I found myself in a room where people were openly talking about civil war in South Africa, and it was shocking and it wasn’t in the context of Cape independence. It was in the context of the far. The ANC effectively falling below 50% the EF.

59:20.65 – Brian David Crane

Umm.

59:36.71 – Phil Craig

Coming to Pat and then all of a sudden now you have the seizure of farmlands you have the claiming of property rights you have open? Yeah, this person that’s threatening the genocide of whites and I can tell you that there is a mass arming going on of untraining minorities. Understanding and that ironically isn’t in the Western Cape because our solution is Cape independence. So is there a prospect of a civil war in South Africa, yes there is that because of Cape independence. No, it’s not. It’s because of the reasons for Cape Independence because in a country where 15 million people and..

1:00:05.77 – Brian David Crane

I know.

1:00:15.75 – Phil Craig
Are not black Africans if you an African for African dictator that comes to power that threatens genocide to think that he’s going to have to deal with 15 million people who really don’t like him very much, that is not a prospect that any way appeals to me. It would be an absolute tragedy. But actually the lesson comes back and when I heard those things, I was in there night then was instantly reminded of that section in the United Nations. It’s not taking the steps that causes the war you’ve got solutions in Cape Independence and other solutions around the country and if we don’t take timeliest steps now whilst we can.

1:00:46.61 – Brian David Crane

Go and..

1:00:55.44 – Phil Craig

And we deal with this democratically according to the constitution’s peaceful vote, then in 10 years time or 15 years time we’re going to deal with it in a far more unpleasant way.

1:00:57.32 – Brian David Crane

Yeah.

1:01:03.76 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, 100% yeah there’s only 2 ways to solve a disagreement is either through words or force and if words cease to work then you’re only left to force. It’s also part of the reason in my opinion to just generally be in favor of free speech which is that.

1:01:08.61 – Phil Craig

Yeah, yeah.

1:01:21.40 – Brian David Crane

You need to allow people to be able to speak it out because if you shut down or shout down their point of view then they’re only left with the means of resolving their problems. Cool. Thank you Phil. I appreciate your time very much. I loved the history lesson and the context as far as.

1:01:39.63 – Brian David Crane

What’s happening here in the Western Cape Iove it here and would love to see the Western Cape be independent. What can people do if you’re South African and you’re a voter in the Western Cape who obviously supports the Referendum party if you’re outside of the Western Cape. And you’re South African or you’re not South African but you care about this part of the world. What can people do to help your efforts and help the Referendum party.

1:02:00.14 – Phil Craig

Yeah, So as you say in the western cape, vote for us outside of the Western cave. You can still vote for us on the national ballot. and you know, I often use the expression I often think of the Western independent, Western Cape as kind of like Israel for the jews. You don’t need to be. You don’t need to live in Israel to benefit from its existence as a Jewish person and I think these ideological minorities and in the West in South Africa will benefit greatly from having an ideological homeland of this kind of Western leaning section, who only are safe haven in a time of crisis.

But you’ve also got an ally. You’ve got a neighbor who basically is going to have the ability to project real force and so therefore, that’s really important and ironically outside. There’s a big role for the international community. So in terms of the states I think there’s an awful lot to be done. Why will the ANC ultimately grant Cape independence because it will get lent on by the by its international allies, and the US probably more than anything else is is critical, and I’ve been surprised actually..

I don’t know maybe I would have thought they would have got to my door and I haven’t. I’ve been amazed at how slow the US and other countries have been to recognize the strategic significance of Cape independence. I mean while the Suez Canal is in control of BRICS and you’ve got Southern Africa in control of BRICS. Then here you have this liberation movement.

1:03:34.50 – Phil Craig

On the Southern tip on the Cape sea route. It’s that in 20 years time the US will have no allies here. So I’ve always been amazed that the US has taken such a handoff role and in your audience in the state I would say look..

1:03:50.90 – Phil Craig

Get involved that you know never mind our interest the US has got interests here and it should be recognizing that because, there’s a very limited time window here to secure this Western footprint and on the African continents and when it’s gone, it’s Gone. Then you’ve got BRICS controlling the Suez Canal and the Cape sea routes and that is a position I don’t think is a healthy one for the world.

1:04:09.31 – Brian David Crane

Yep.

1:04:17.50 – Brian David Crane
Yeah, it’s a geopolitical imperative if for no other reason than that the policymakers in the US should be paying attention to this, and I think they just generally think the policymakers in the US by and large are left wing and that they would not.. Yeah, but I agree with you. I understand the points and I think if you look at a map the US needs to be actively supporting the Cape and independence. So thanks for your time I will include yeah links to the Facebook page and to you and cig and all the different..

1:04:45.37 – Phil Craig

Pleasure. Thank you.

1:04:56.72 – Brian David Crane

Let’s call it. the web of activism, that’s generally pushing for Cape independence and we will be here for the election and hope for you to get your 7% all right.

Thanks Phil. Bye-bye.

1:05:05.74 – Phil Craig

Thanks Brian really appreciate it. Good chat all right pay.