Watch the full video of our conversation on the Spread Great Ideas YouTube channel.

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Full Transcript of Our Conversation

Introduction and Guest Welcome

00:00.00 – Brian David Crane

Hey folks, please welcome Jayson Gaddis who is well. He’s a father and entrepreneur, an artist and author, a speaker, a human behavior specialist and most importantly, he’s a relationship expert. He’s the author of Getting to zero, How to work through conflict in your high stakes relationships and is also the founder of the relationship school. We’ve known one another for the better part of 10 years and we’re going to be talking about his areas of expertise along with fatherhood in the digital age. Thanks for coming on Jason all right?

00:28.31 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, thanks Brian glad to be here.

Conflict in Relationships

00:33.85 – Brian David Crane

For those listening just give a little bit of context about getting to zero. What is the core? What are you teaching in that? How does somebody get to zero in a fight with their partner or with their kids?

00:47.43 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, well first of all I wrote this book because the most common complaint over the past twenty years, working with people and specifically in their relationships has been that we can’t work through conflict or challenges. We don’t know what to do.

Building Stronger Relationships Through Conflict

01:05.50 – Jayson Gaddis

A lot of us are conflict avoiders. A lot of us are going to blame that obviously all that comes from our culture we grew up in. However, our family did it. We either do the opposite or we do the same thing. I was like okay if I could have the most impact I want to really write a book that. If a person can figure this out the rest of their relationship life will be much much better, because conflict is an inevitable part of life in my experience and inevitable in a relationship, marriage or a family. So if that’s true then we need to have a plan and tools to work through that and repair get back to a good place so we can get on with our day or our lives.

And the irony here is that part of the premise of the book really is that if you can figure this out and learn how to repair, after a conflict with a spouse or a kid or friends. The relationship itself actually gets stronger. So It’s the adversity of disagreeing and challenging each other that builds a stronger foundation. It’s like weight training. You don’t build stronger weight muscles by sitting in your ass, right? Avoiding challenging yourself. You actually have to get in the gym and push yourself and add some weight, so It’s the same thing. It’s like look, the weights are conflict and we want to create a stronger person and a stronger relationship. So that’s really what the book’s about and there’s just lots of practical tools on how to listen better and how to speak better? Yeah, and then just understanding our relational blueprint like where we come from, is going to have a huge impact on how we deal with adversity in our adult relationships.

Adversity and Resilience in Children

02:51.19 – Brian David Crane

And so it’s interesting that the theme of adversity because that’s part of the reason you and I started talking about the anxious generation, which is a core theme in that book is also that kids need adversity or they need some resilience. They’re anti-fragile as ah Jonathan hate puts it in the book and and so I think that might be why the one of the reasons why the message in that book also resonated with you is because you could see a parallel of this. Yeah that’s what he starts in the book..

Hate does in his with a tree that they tried to grow in a biosphere that couldn’t put down roots because they didn’t have any wind pushing on it, and so the tree didn’t actually get strong enough to ah to support itself, right? And so to use a bad analogy I think with what you’re describing in relationships. There’s also..

03:40.20 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

03:47.96 – Brian David Crane

You need the conflict of the wind to actually strengthen it assuming you can get through it. Is that right?

03:53.79 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, you got it and most people have weird ideas about partnership and marriage and family. They really think it’s fascinating people sign up for a marriage thinking if I just meet the right person, it will just be easy and everything will go well and I come man that’s a recipe for a nightmare, because if you’re in a fantasy you’re going to create a nightmare. So yeah, it’s like..

Look let’s just embrace reality, which is that there’s conflict everywhere out in the world, in our homes, in our neighborhoods, in our communities and it doesn’t have to be a problem if we have the facility and the skills to move through it.

Understanding the Relationship School

04:37.42 – Brian David Crane

When people sign up on.. When people come to the relationship school, your coaching business are they looking? are they coming there looking for you to help coach them? Or are they looking to become coaches themselves? Or are they drawn there because, yeah, when I looked at the landing page, it seemed like maybe they were also looking for a partner that was like one of the opt-in or, is it all 3?

05:03.85 – Jayson Gaddis

It’s primarily 2 things. It’s a person is in pain in their relationship life and they want to change that they want to get out of pain. So they come here to study with us, and it’s a little different than you are hiring a therapist where you hope the therapist is kind of like a chiropractor. They just give you an adjustment and you can kind of get on with your life. But I found after being a therapist for so many years that people need more than an adjustment. They need to learn like what they didn’t get in their childhood.

And not everybody’s up for that. But for the people that are they radically change their lives so that person in pain transforms into a very empowered person when they leave our school. And then, often they want to go on to help others with that because they’ve had such a big transformation so they want to become a coach and so we have a certification for people that want to be a soldier out there in the world trying to help other people with us.

Conflict Management in Parenting

06:00.25 – Brian David Crane

I like the soldier being a soldier out in the world. That’s why I laugh now because of the mission of what you’re doing. Yeah so in navigating, let’s say conflict with your kids. What is your framework for going through that? How are you? What do you think about it?

06:18.85 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, so in our home we have this frame that we have the view that conflict is a part of life. And if you have more than one child, you’ll quickly see that the 2 children almost on a daily basis have. They’re fighting over a toy or you know their play turns into something rough and then it gets intense and one of them ends up crying and it’s just like this is the deal. And so that’s why like 2 kids is such good practice for life because you have to share. And you have to work through conflict and repair. And you can certainly do that with one child and through the parents and through play and with other kids and all that of course.

Yeah, so we model first of all that this is how we do it in our home and so my wife and I are not afraid to fight in front of our kids. Because we always get to resolution 100% of the time, so they see 2 big people disagreeing and getting a little heated. One of us is getting quiet like they feel the tension in the house. But within a few hours or at least a day or so they feel the resolution. And that feels really safe and they’re like I can trust that if I get into a fight with my sibling, or someone at school, I too can get back to a good place. So we model it number one.

And then number 2 we certainly know it’s been repeated over and over in our home for years. Our kids are 15 and 13 now and the repetition is just relentless practice for them because it’s a very developmental stage to blame someone else. To not take any responsibility and be like I didn’t do anything. No it was him, it was her. That’s like normal child behavior but we try to get our kids to move from that reaction into a place of personal responsibility. So they’re actually saying yeah I kind of am, pinched you before you hit me I grabbed the toy before like I did that and I can see that kind of had an impact and it cascaded and then I yelled, I cried, and I went to mom or whatever.

So lots of repetitions with the conflict repair cycle in our home, and our kids are very close and very tight and have a great relationship but like any great relationship. They also have problems and challenges and disagree and blame and we’re giving them reps in life, and then they go to the playground at school. Then they come home and they’re like wow. Kids at school and my son actually said this to my wife like when he was 6 or 7 he came home from school and was like, Wow mom, I’m noticing that the teacher you know there was a big challenge on the playground today, and she said what happened and every kid pointed the finger at some other kid.

Challenges and Personal Responsibility

09:17.97 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, yeah.

09:20.40 – Jayson Gaddis

And he was surprised that he didn’t. He was like I’m surprised then these kids realized that if you just raised your hand and said, this is what I did that the teacher is going to trust you more and you’re going to be out of trouble immediately. But he’s like wow I’m just surprised that this is the path kids take when they know they did something but they want to not admit it. So this is the world we live in and I think it’s key to teach your kids to take responsibility for their actions.

09:45.13 – Brian David Crane

Well, it’s also premised or predicated upon the kids having to be honest with you and your wife, right? So in that disagreement about who pitched to or who took whose toy or whatnot and you have you let’s assume you 2 weren’t there.

09:56.49 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

10:03.85 – Brian David Crane

What is a shared truth over what actually happened right? Like one says X the other one says Y? How do you do? How do you discern? What went down?

10:08.99 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, now.. And when they’re toddlers, it’s harder than when they get older then they can have more in their frontal lobe and they can really rationally think and it’s reflected and all that, initially, yeah. Well basically the younger the kids are, you’re doing less talking and more that felt bad to her that felt bad to him. Can you guys see that okay, is there anything you want to say?

10:27.48 – Brian David Crane

And yeah.

10:44.67 – Jayson Gaddis

And most parents resort to the little hanging fruit of just say you’re sorry and that somehow fixes things and that often just is not enough to settle the nervous system I think it’s a good life skill to have of course we need to be able to say sorry sometimes but um, you know you’ll find in an adult relationship I’m sorry rarely works for people.

11:04.10 – Jayson Gaddis

It’s just not.. It’s not enough. But little kids kind of little conversations. Big kids have big conversations cubing it. Super simple and kids that look like kids are so resilient if they don’t have a big trauma history and it’s not a chaotic traumatic home. Within seconds and minutes they’re back to playing and they forget so quickly. Whereas adults hang on to it and because it goes into procedural memory compounds over time. It reminds us of all the unresolvable shit before it gets very hard to resolve.

Personal Experiences with Conflict

11:38.89 – Brian David Crane

So yeah I want to go back to something you said. When you and your wife start a fight together, your kids are in the room or they feel the let’s say the storm building, right? One of you gets quiet. They can tell that there’s a disagreement coming or that there’s one present in the room and it travels throughout the night. And then the next day you and your wife are again finishing the fight or there’s some Chapter 2 in the book. They’re present for both parts of it right? So they’re for the fight and then they’re also there for the resolution of it. I can imagine sometimes my wife and I fight. It might take a day.

12:11.69 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, yeah.

12:23.18 – Brian David Crane

And it’s a multi-hour process, right? So it’s not necessarily that the kids want to be there for all of it. I don’t, yeah.

12:26.79 – Jayson Gaddis

Right? Yeah, they’re not. They’re not getting their popcorn and sitting down. They want to play and they want to move on and they’re not interested in the 2 hour process. But what they feel and see over time and they come and go they leave the room and do whatever they want to do, they go read a book they disappear for a while.

12:35.87 – Brian David Crane

Yeah.

12:46.32 – Jayson Gaddis

Ah, you know a day later that night at dinner like they feel the vibe in the house and it’s different and it’s back to like we’re cool.

12:51.81 – Brian David Crane

That’s cool. Okay, yeah, and then that makes sense and then maybe at some point, you and your wife were able to have like makeup sex or who knows like there’s a lot of parts of the story that may be.

13:07.36 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, that’s right? but the vibe they’re getting the download, they’re getting over time is we can do hard things here. We can disagree and we’ll always get back to a good place and unfortunately too many homes don’t. They don’t see the resolution, they see.

13:08.18 – Brian David Crane

They don’t see and it’s not yeah, just..

13:27.40 – Jayson Gaddis

People avoid and then the tension kind of after a week and some wine and some Netflix shows the tension sort of fades a little bit until the next fight and they’re not seeing anything like my parents growing up. I heard them yell and scream at times in middle school that I remember. I think there were other conflicts that I don’t remember, but they would always in other words, fight, like away from us and I never saw resolution. It is just like, I guess we’re okay, but you could feel it and still to this day.

They’re still married and there’s just loads of resentments so you can feel them. The sarcasm comes out as just a biting dagger at one another after all these years, and it’s just so clear that they just don’t know how to get to zero, they don’t, how to resolve anything and they compartmentalize and that’s okay, it’s just not. That’s not the culture I want in my home.

14:20.56 – Brian David Crane

Makes sense. Yeah, do they listen to you, speak or do they listen like they take an interest in your work, and know that you cite them as an example? Sometimes of what you don’t want..

14:34.30 – Jayson Gaddis

Barely I mentioned them in the book a little bit, and it was a little tricky because they’re both still alive in their 80’s. And I knew they were going to read the book. It’s like well how intense do I want to go here.

14:42.80 – Brian David Crane

And with..

14:47.34 – Jayson Gaddis

But I’m not in a place to blame them. I’m just sort of like the facts, like I grew up in a culture. And this is kind of my experience and it’s the download I got so they took a very mild interest. They kind of still I’m kind of a mystery to them. They’re just like what are you doing again? What do you do? And it’s okay I’m not looking for it.

15:02.36 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, their approval. Let’s say yeah, that’s cool. So I want to go back as well. You mentioned this thing of a procedural memory when adults are fighting what is that.

The Role of Procedural Memory in Conflict

15:06.90 – Jayson Gaddis

Ah, I started being seen by them like I was for so long.

15:18.98 – Brian David Crane

Exactly. What do you mean by that term?

15:21.36 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, basically um, if you and I are in a relationship and let’s say we get married and we have we start we had a honeymoon stage great. Everything was great and then we started fighting after a year or 2 or disagreeing or we’re like wow you’re really different or you’re really difficult because that’s common. You’re going to start behaving in ways that remind me of my family and there’s been no other significant attachment figure in my life outside of our relationship except for my parents and my family of origin.

That’s why the primary relationship triggers all the 18 years of the original attachment relationship and so you might have a facial expression Brian. Let’s say that you get Stern your brow furrows and you get really quiet and you withdraw. Well, depending on the moment I see your face, it kind of reminds me of my mom because that’s exactly what she did when she was under stress, as she would furrow her brow. She would get quiet. She would withdraw into a little boy that’s 3 or 5 years old that’s very threatening and scary because I don’t know where mom’s going.

And so that triggers that long-term memory there that I never got dealt with and addressed is in my body. It’s just there so I see it’s recognition like it’s familiar and I feel like I’m back in my home again. It’s that kind of thing. It’s also like when we don’t resolve our conflicts as adults.

16:43.75 – Brian David Crane

Correct.

16:51.20 – Jayson Gaddis

And we just sort of forget about it. It goes into long-term memory and so every time you make a comment about my work or money or whatever that triggers me every single time and we’ve never resolved it and so just compounds and now instead of dealing with just the quick comment about money today. Every comment you’ve ever made about money is there and it’s just compounded and it’s louder and more intense, and it’s just like god damn it and people call that a resentment. Yeah, it’s just hard. It’s hard to deal with if you’ve gone years without dealing with conflict. It’s really hard to get to zero.

17:34.95 – Brian David Crane

Yeah I will use a personal example where sometimes when my wife and I fight she’ll say something in anger to me and in my mind. I’m like that’s the truth, like the thing that she said that was trying to cut me the deepest. I’m like that’s really what you believe and then I will basically store it and bring it up in the next fight. Because I’m like, you said this. When you were really up that was when you like let your guard down, and let me know what you really thought and I mean but..

17:57.90 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

18:09.80 – Brian David Crane

I don’t know which one of my parents I picked that habit up from what it doesn’t really matter honestly, but it’s not something I really like, it also makes a loop of fights like it’s like you kind of like keep coming back to a meta theme, which isn’t doesn’t allow us to get to zero.

18:21.46 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, right? And it’s like she hurts you, got hurt by her behavior or actions and then now it’s like cool. I’m going to hurt you because I want to settle the score. And I want to make this fair. A lot of us are really into fairness like hey it’s not fair that you bring up all this shit about me.

18:35.57 – Brian David Crane

United. Yes.

18:41.40 – Jayson Gaddis

Without me bringing up shit about you. It’s got you know we want to do that. It’s understandable. But yeah, it’s like you’ve seen. It’s kind of loopy.

18:45.71 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, and so when you’re in a conflict like how do you shrink it for lack of a better way to put it so what I mean like you and your wife keep up.

18:57.13 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

Effective Conflict Resolution Strategies

19:00.48 – Brian David Crane

Yeah framework or guardrails around it. So it doesn’t dovetail into past grievances.

19:01.56 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, so we always commit to doing our best to get to the bottom of every conflict as soon as possible. So that’s one of our agreements. Another one is like we..

19:11.95 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, so that way there’s no legacy debt.

19:20.52 – Jayson Gaddis

Within 24 hours we commit to initiating at least some kind of repair for one of us. It doesn’t matter who so we don’t delay the repair because again that compounds the longer we wait the more. It’s likely to go into long-term memory. So we want to settle things as soon as possible with busy lives. Sometimes it’s a day or 2 mum’s so those are just some basic agreements. And then you asked if there was one more thing I wanted to say about this, Oh, there’s really 2 things to shrink the window. How do we like to get back to a good place as soon as possible because look, I think most of us would admit our day is harder and I can’t sleep as well when my wife and I are in a snag.

It’s just more stressful. It’s just like this low grade background stress noise and that’s more true for the anxious partner. It’s less true for the more avoidant withdrawing partner. They’re sometimes relieved like sweet. I don’t have to deal with that person for days so that depending on our attachment style that can play a factor but we want to.

20:17.51 – Brian David Crane

Yes.

20:35.50 – Jayson Gaddis

We can do 2 things right to resolve things we can speak or we can listen and the simple download here is if you’re going to speak. You’re not coming in with the story about what happened and what they did wrong. You’re coming in with personal responsibility. My part is, it’s a simple sentence stem, and then fill in the blank with your actions and then the second part of the sentence is and I can imagine the impact on you was that’s empathy. So I did a thing, I raised my voice and I can imagine the impact on you. If you felt hurt or scared and if we start with that, the other person’s going to immediately feel like you’re wanting to collaborate.

You see that your behavior has an impact on them. So that’s a very fast tool to get started if you’re going to speak if you’re going to listen. We Want to come in with a tremendous amount of curiosity, set our shit aside and be like honey, I want to listen until you feel understood. That’s the commitment. L-U-F-U lufu. Not until I think I understand you but until you feel understood, so tell me what happened, tell me what’s going on, and then she starts talking. And I’m reflecting back the essence of what she’s communicating, and then I say it sounds like you felt like I raised my voice and then you withdrew, and you’re also upset because we didn’t make plans with my mom for this weekend and I kind of I said I would and I didn’t. Did I get that right? Yeah, you pretty much got that right? Okay, so honey then it makes sense.

And I start validating her feelings. It makes sense that you feel upset because I did, and then I went into ownership and then I did because I did forget to talk to mom, and I did raise my voice and so yeah, I can really see that hurt your feelings and that’s what caused this whole mess in the first place. So I’m listening, but I’m going to turn it into a big reflection about her experience and her experience has nothing to do with right and wrong. A lot of people get stuck there. Her experience is valid and it’s just how she sees the world and that’s valid. Everybody’s experience is 100% valid.

22:28.50 – Brian David Crane

Going on..

22:43.95 – Brian David Crane

And you also take ownership as far as your role in creating that experience. Yeah.

22:46.99 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, especially fully if she’s coming at me, if she’s coming out with blame like well, you’re such an asshole because you did this X Y and Z. I’ll be like I could see yeah, I could see that you’re seeing that I was a jerk because I did X Y and Z, I’m not going to defend. Yeah, it’s a waste of time to defend yourself that’s going to just go. It’s going to keep everybody going in circles.

23:06.28 – Brian David Crane

I didn’t call my mom to organize or whatever it was, yeah.

23:17.57 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, and also because it eats up the low-grade annoyance that you talked about if you’re depending on your attachment style. Whether you’re anxious or avoidant. But the low grade that memory goes into fight as far as trying to remember. What was said when and in what order it was said, and then trying to piece it back together when you go through this like chronological timeline, which is what I tend to do. I’m like no, this is how it happened. It was like this first of this and this.

23:44.63 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

23:51.70 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, it is. It kind of drives her nuts especially because she’s got a better memory than me generally speaking so I feel defensive. But yeah going into that, go ahead.

23:58.42 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, quick right? So quick. Tip there because guys in particular, often more left brain people want to get very logical about it and rational like no. I know exactly what happened this? No, that’s not what you said. I said this, and then you said that again.

24:04.20 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, yes.

24:12.99 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, cause and effect gap.

24:15.85 – Jayson Gaddis

Big waste of time. Huge massive time sucks so instead of any of that, what you want to do, I’m a serious man. It’s awful instead of any of that you go for the essence of what she’s trying to communicate, and the feeling the impact that it caused. Let’s say, she talks for 5 minutes straight about exactly what happened you’re like, wow here’s the summary in like 1 or 2 sentences. It sounds like you’re most upset that I didn’t call my mom and that I raised my voice and that really hurt your feelings is that right? versus? no.

That’s not what happened because it was Saturday. It wasn’t Sunday that I called my mom, and then I get into the minutiae of the fucking details. It’s just such a waste of time to just go for the essence and especially go for feelings because that’s what even though a woman might not be telling you, Hey, I want you to see my feelings.

That’s really what is going to feel better to her is you’re angry or hurt because of a blank got it that may, and then you say that makes sense because damn given that storm that happened. Wow I would be upset too.

Parenting Styles and Approaches

25:29.85 – Brian David Crane

Bang on. Yeah I get it.

25:31.58 – Jayson Gaddis

Super simple and if you think of raising kids. It’s the same thing. It’s not that we don’t go into exactly what happened, we just try to understand. The kid throws a huge tantrum and one of my play therapists. Friends taught me this when my kids were in the toddler years. When my son was particularly like hitting his sister. It was just I was trying to be a therapy guy like talking to him like I’m 40 years old and it’s like no dude, he’s too one back to a 2 year old like he’s in a therapy session.

So she taught me to reflect back just like, he’s jumping up and down throwing a tantrum, screaming and I’m like whoa you’re mad. You’re really mad I see you got it. Thanks for letting me know that’s it, and sometimes they need help labeling their feelings. Oh you’re scared right now. I see you in your fear and daddy’s right here, I’m right here with you.

Super simple. It calms me down. Yeah, he would immediately like there’s no need to scream and yell anymore. If someone’s seeing me, someone’s hey he’s like, this like hey, hello, help me.

26:28.88 – Brian David Crane

Amazing. Okay, and what would happen. Yeah, and what would happen if his body language would change or he would.

26:44.61 – Jayson Gaddis

And it’s like hey, I see you in your pain and it’s going to be okay. I’m here and then it’s just like yeah, and then we’re on to play moving on.

26:56.23 – Brian David Crane

So what would be what? What is yours? Yeah as you think about the different dynamics. Let’s say because you have a boy and a girl like how is it different between the 2 of them in terms of how you relate to them both. If there is a distinct difference you handle them differently. Maybe you handle it in the same way.

27:16.94 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, it’s kind of both and they’re similar and same in that they’re a human being having an experience, and I want to see them different in that they’re vastly different. He’s very gregarious and outgoing and up for anything and super enthusiastic. She’s like a sensitive little orchid and needs a different kind of handling and a different kind of care. For example, even sleep like his parents, he was a good sleeper. He eventually found his sleep rhythms.

27:47.49 – Brian David Crane

You.

27:51.76 – Jayson Gaddis

She took us 4 years with her incredibly challenging sleep and we were up for it because we knew that we were like wow, we have a super sensitive kid here. Probably a highly sensitive person on that scale. So that’s going to require a different level of care and that’s great because it keeps parents agile. And it keeps them seeing their unique person as they are, and this is like partnership or if we’re running a team. If we’re running a business, it’s like every person there’s the general rules about humans like everybody wants to be loved and accepted for who they are. So let’s try to behave in a way that has them feel that way, but then there’s like God everybody’s different.

My last partner was this way and now I get it now. Now I’m dealing with someone like this, how the hell and we want it to be easy. Our hedonistic nature, we want to be simple and feel good and so it challenges us to learn, grow and develop ourselves so that we can be really able to meet. Any personality where they’re at and that’s I like that path because it keeps me on my toes right? But because we tend to automate our partners. Especially we tend to put people in boxes.

28:54.52 – Brian David Crane

Yeah.

28:57.28 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, I think you had on your about page as well on the relationship school something to this effect. I don’t have it in front of me, but it was that you like growing that was how I remember. And it was like yes seriously, or something like this like ever in some.

29:14.61 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

29:15.58 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, and there’s a couple other allusions to this which is that you don’t want the automation effectively, right? Like you don’t want the cheat code of.. Just put the quarter in here and the kid comes out the other end. And it’s simple like wipe your hands and you’re done right.

29:29.14 – Jayson Gaddis

Right? Yeah, and as much as I love scripts, I have plenty of them in my book for example and in my courses in terms of how to work through conflict. Every person’s different.

29:31.86 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, it’s not what you’re here for.

29:43.37 – Jayson Gaddis

It’s like a health program. It’s like every fitness program like what might work for. You might not work for me, so it’s so unique. We want precision, care with our partners you know and our kids.

The Anxious Generation and Technology

29:54.78 – Brian David Crane

So what led you? What led you into the anxious generation? Jonathan hates books like what was the yeah, what was the catalyst? Why did that book spark curiosity in you?

30:06.74 – Jayson Gaddis

Well I’ve heard Jonathan Hay’s name just in the background on social media for the last couple of years and I haven’t, I heard about the coddling of the American mind and that was like piqued my interest, I was like, Oh I want to read that and then I just got busy and forgot and moved on.

30:14.69 – Brian David Crane

Nice.

30:23.29 – Jayson Gaddis

But soon as I saw this anxious generation and this subhead I was like, man I got to read this. I immediately started listening to it the moment I saw it, and it was just like light bulb after light bulb was like, oh my god and it resonated so deeply because my wife and I chose to raise our kids in a private Waldorf school setting where.. They delay reading, they delay screens, they delay phones. Everything’s like a delay for the Waldorf kid. It’s way more natural paced. So my daughter’s still in seventh grade now moving into eighth.

30:50.66 – Brian David Crane

Until what age like how far out do they delay that..

31:00.65 – Jayson Gaddis

My son just went from Waldorf. He left after Eighth grade and went into a public high school with a massive transition for him. Now it’s a deep cut. He’s totally rocking it, he was ready. You know he’s ready for the kind of come out of the bubble of the Waldorf bubble. So I think they delay reading till like second or third grade, I might not don’t quote me on this, but there’s so many fears about well your kid’s going to fall behind. And but we got to get our kids testing early and that other article I sent you we got to.

31:36.23 – Brian David Crane

No.

31:38.34 – Jayson Gaddis

We had to get them into academics so that they can get into college. I’m just like dude this is such a dumb game that people are playing. I’m like we’re not playing a game. We’re playing a different game which is like play and relationship building and being outside as much as possible and we toyed with homeschooling was a strong consideration for us. But neither of us felt up for being the team lead on that at home. So we wanted to find the best kind of teachers that we could for our kids that would be great role models.

And we found a couple of amazing little schools here in Boulder. And it’s been a great fit for us and so our kids, we delayed, so I’m circling back to John and the hate stuff here in a second. And we delayed like our kid. My son didn’t get a phone till he was 13, didn’t even get a phone and it’s cool because he didn’t even really want a phone.

32:20.74 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, please, it’s fine. Yeah.

32:34.67 – Jayson Gaddis

Because he was so into connecting and just playing outside. All the other things that kids used to be able to do without phones. There was so much facility to just be outside and just find imagination, play and our kids’ imaginations are so good because we never let them watch movies. His first movie was when he was 11 years old. And people think I’m nuts, right? And it’s like no. It was the first movie I think was the sound of music, and it got a little intense at the end you know the ending of that movie is super intense but again a good challenge for us.

32:57.30 – Brian David Crane

Amazing. Yeah.

33:12.61 – Jayson Gaddis

And so Mary Poppins, and the sound of music, and those kinds of movies were like our introductions to movies because they’re so wholesome and there’s no violence, and there’s no like blowing anyone up or any of that shit. And my daughter still to this day won’t watch a super intense movie and she’s 13 because it’s just her imagination is so strong and she’s so sensitive. It feels like she’s there and it feels really bad to her body to be watching violence for example or aggression or scary things and she’ll walk her way into that she needs to keep getting stronger.

So it was a good choice for us and so when I heard about Jonathan Heights, I’m diving into that book and I’m like, Oh my god, his premise that parents are overprotecting outside in the world social with social play and under protecting kids online just..

33:58.49 – Brian David Crane

In the virtual world. Yeah.

34:01.86 – Jayson Gaddis

I just see that over and over Brian in my work with people and ah you know the parents we roll with and the kids at school even in the Waldorf school. There’s parents who like sneaking their kids’ phones and being trying to be stealth about it and it’s like that. Difference in that kid and the kids who aren’t on phones is like night and day and then when we interact with our public school friends and their kids you know I’m playing video games all day or you know on social media already at age 11 it’s just I just see where it’s all going and to see a group of kids.

Sitting outside in a park, sitting next to each other all staring at their phones, not talking to each other and only showing each other like talking to each other when they want to show each other an Instagram story or a pitcher. I’m just like dude this is not okay, there’s something terribly wrong with this picture.

And then he comes in and backs it up with sort of more of the science and evidence and it just all resonated man.
I feel so on board with the vast majority of that sort of frames.

35:00.44 – Brian David Crane

And it’s got to feel rewarding that whether no movies and until your boy was 11 or then, no phones for your boy until he’s 13. Or like he didn’t have a phone period until he was 13, right? Like no, obviously, I don’t think he didn’t have a smartphone yet and probably now, he’s a smartphone. Yeah.

35:20.64 – Jayson Gaddis

Um, yeah.

35:26.14 – Jayson Gaddis

He has a smartphone now but he’s 15 and it’s highly restricted. It’s like basically he has access to his school stuff and a merlin bird app so he can identify birds and like that’s it.

35:32.86 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, from..

35:42.35 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, there was, because I mean hate’s core 4 Corp points and we’re gonna get to the collective action part which I want to get to with the Waldorf school in a second but his 4 core points are.

35:42.91 – Jayson Gaddis

Super pared down.

35:56.74 – Brian David Crane

One is that schools should not have any phones period, like they should be in a lockbox or not even permitted on school property you should not. There should be no social media for your children prior to 16 like can’t create an account if they.

36:01.25 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

36:11.24 – Brian David Crane

Wind up on Tiktok through their browser like that’s different than actually creating an account on Tiktok and getting a mesh enmeshed in it or Instagram, the third one is no smartphones I think before 13. And I don’t remember the fourth.

36:15.92 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

36:27.73 – Brian David Crane

The force was a much more play-based childhood as opposed to a phone base which is basically getting them outdoors and getting them away. So in your case with the Waldorf school and these parents there was a conscious like.

36:29.29 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, getting outside nature.

Collective Action and Community Influence

36:43.10 – Brian David Crane

How did it work and what I mean by that is like did the Waldorf School say okay, cool like we’re not gonna permit any phones here or was it that the parents said collectively I don’t know 7 eight years ago or whatever period it was that like hey we just don’t want. We don’t want the wall like hey Walter School we don’t want you to allow phones in here and like you guys got it right? with. You know prior to the data being there like how it came about.

37:06.66 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, it was a nice simple framework that was like, Hey we have a strong preference like if you’re at this Waldorf school. You kind of already are on board with..

37:22.23 – Jayson Gaddis

Not a lot of screen stuff. You’re not going to be on computers. The kids aren’t going to be on computers at all until probably middle school or high school laptops and so that goes with phones. Also, hey, we’re not going to do phones at this school and so the lower school which creates K-5 at this Waldorf school. Pretty much the whole culture we’re not doing phones and computers here. And of course Covid pushed some parents had accelerated things for some parents because the kids had a year of being on a computer with Zoom. So that was a little outlier but it was tricky because some parents.

That opened the gates a little early for some of the parents and then they stayed open. Other parents shut it back down but the gent in general, the culture we’re all on the same page and this is what’s nice Jonathan talks about one of the biggest challenges of course is if all the other kids in a friend group get the phone or get the thing.

38:03.32 – Brian David Crane

And..

38:19.70 – Jayson Gaddis

Your kid is the kid. That’s now socially outcast because they’re missing out there. You’re holding firm with your boundaries. But you’re now up against your kids like freaking out because they feel left out and that’s that’s real. I know my biggest challenge for example I think is going to be. And my wife is the biggest challenge for our daughters because I guarantee, you will be the last parent to give them social media or just like hell now. So it might be 16, it might be 18, I don’t know but I’m holding out.

But the biggest challenge is going to be when my daughter’s friends all have Snapchat, and she is freaking out and telling me that what a terrible doubt I am because I won’t give her Snapchat. And then she might actually lose some of those friends like we don’t know like that’s going to be the hardest. I can’t really tell you. I’d love to say, I’m a hold firm but will I cave I don’t know, that’s going to be a hard decision.

39:13.50 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, because it also touches on this collective action which is a lot of what hate talks about in terms of the community and if you have, let’s assume your daughter goes to the public school that your son’s in when she finishes at the Waldorf after Eighth grade. She winds up in this public school. The other kids have Snapchat. There’s a story in the book that he goes into and a lawsuit that was filed against Meta with a girl that all of her friends had Instagram accounts. She figured out how to hide the Instagram icon underneath the calculator icon on her computer.

39:47.15 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

39:51.44 – Brian David Crane

Then she would install the Instagram app then uninstall it, then she created a series of pseudo accounts all trying to kind of circumnavigate her parents or so circumvent her parents. Excuse me, and because the community by and large the other girls that she was friends with all had Instagram and she wanted to get on there, right? And that was the..

40:08.35 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

40:10.40 – Brian David Crane

And she wound up in the lawsuit with what they alleges. She developed an eating disorder and became anorexic. Then I think it’s the same story, she threatened to kill herself when her parents tried to take it away from her again and like serious addiction problems. But the question is when your daughter gets to that point in their party you just like makes you want to go live with the Amish or something, or like just go to like a zero tech kind of environment.

40:39.10 – Jayson Gaddis

I know yeah. I mean I do have that part of me because I love nature and I love, like my business is all on my phone with my computer and online. So it’s tough because I know I’m sort of a hypocrite there. But I do think..

40:50.54 – Brian David Crane

Online and yeah.

40:58.57 – Jayson Gaddis

I’m not anti-screens, I’m not anti-phones, I’m not Anti-tech, I’m a big fan but I just want it to be age-appropriate. Yeah and I think the thing that might make us a little unique and different in our family is. We’re such a connected relational culture family.

41:05.47 – Brian David Crane

Yeah.

The Importance of Secure Attachments

41:16.80 – Jayson Gaddis

We think that’s going to win out over big tech. That our kids always have the nourishment that one feels and gets from being seen by your parents and feeling safe at home emotionally, physically and feeling like we’re their biggest champions and there’s such a sweet solid foundation here that in some ways, I’m not afraid to lose my kids to teach because they have, and I’m seeing that with my son like now that he’s in a public high school and he has 2 computers.

He’s got a public school Computer. He’s got his school or his home computer. He’s got a phone now. He sees what kids are out in the real world because we’re in the bubble. And he’s kind of like holy shit and he knows, feels and sees and talks about it very openly with us about what it’s like at high school and he’s so grateful for what he’s gotten at home and that he has a home that is like ours.

42:13.67 – Brian David Crane

If..

42:14.97 – Jayson Gaddis

And I think one of the things that Jonathan Haidt didn’t talk about is that he talks about secure attachment briefly in his book. But that’s the hallmark of.. That’s going to keep your kid from getting lost in video games or porn or tech. If you have incredibly solid relationships with your kids, and you know how to develop those and build those, and you can take responsibility as an adult for your part and you can empathize and you can validate, you know how to listen until they feel understood. All these relationally competent skills if you can do that big tech I think is less of a threat and. I don’t.

It’s sort of like Jonathan hates, like kind of going after big tech a little bit whereas he’s not like me. I’m like blaming the parents. I’m like, look, parents are the problem here. Parents have the power to shut their kids’ phones down to delay phone use. To delay social media use and yes, they are incredibly pressured by the culture I get it but to me. at the end of the day, it’s not Facebook’s fault, it’s like parents’ responsibility to do something different here.

43:24.77 – Brian David Crane

Well, there’s that. I think that’s part of his message. The other part of the message though is that the parents have to be willing for the children to get outside and have unsupervised play and get rough and get dirty because of you.

43:35.70 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, right?

43:42.70 – Brian David Crane

The phone is like a substitute for them not being allowed out of the house out of supervision, right? Yeah.

43:48.57 – Jayson Gaddis

Weird point. Yeah, good point and just to own our part. My wife and I actually were watching that video you shared with me yesterday, the hour and a half long talk of Jonathan’s where she now pulls up the playground.

43:54.77 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, yeah.

44:02.27 – Jayson Gaddis

From like the one that’s too dangerous and then the one that’s just right and then the ones nowadays that are all plastic and bolted down and you can’t move anything. It’s sort of like that kind of culture is so sad to me so I used to go to those playgrounds with my kids. I’m like this is so fucking lame like these are so dead, can’t really play with anything. And you’re still potentially going to get hurt, but it’s like so low stakes. Anyway, we’ve definitely been more on the overprotection side of things. This was also as a result of we had something go down when my son was 4 in our old neighborhood. Where it was very hands-off Parenting.

We had a trauma happen with the other boys that I’m not going to go into for privacy’s sake but it was super scary. Super intense. I had to call social services. It was because I was practicing the hands-off parenting thing right. Of course your worst fear happens as a parent and you’re like oh shit I got to overcorrect here. And so there was a period of time, especially after this incident happened where we got a little more hyper vigilant as parents a little too probably overprotective on the outside.

45:01.63 – Brian David Crane

And..

45:15.34 – Jayson Gaddis

And I felt Justified. It felt like hey, this is the right move? And so it wasn’t because I’m hearing all these pop cultures like Danger Stranger Danger or whatever, it’s because I hadn’t experienced it directly in our neighborhood that I thought was pretty safe, that wasn’t so safe. So it’s real. But I still have more to learn there, flexing my muscles and just letting my kid.. You know my kid now rides the public bus to school and it’s been really good for our family because we’re loosening the grip more.

45:34.78 – Brian David Crane

Younger.

45:51.27 – Brian David Crane

In the real world. That’s what I mean , not virtually but in the real world. Yeah.

45:53.36 – Jayson Gaddis

Allowing our kids to what’s that? Yeah, in the real world. Thanks, exactly yeah in keeping a tight grip on the virtual world.

46:04.57 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, there was a heat eat, I think it’s how do I say this succinctly, there’s a tendency to the safety that kind of runs amok in the states and the social pressure to be safe in the physical world, and if you stand out from it and something bad happens. And everybody else kind of points out and like this is exactly why we practice safety is although they don’t necessarily say it in that.

46:32.78 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

46:38.55 – Brian David Crane

And it’s challenging because you’re taking a risk and you could argue. Okay, cool. It’s a calculated risk like we know that all the downsides of the second order effects from not taking these kinds of risks are horrible. We don’t want those things and yet it’s very easy for people. In a group to say yeah you should have your boy, should have been whatever, you should have been watching him or who knows what happened, but like it’s and they’re very quick. They’re very quick to judge. I find that and I don’t know why. Maybe you have some thoughts on what? Why parents?

47:04.47 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

47:13.79 – Brian David Crane

I think I am watching other parents to such a degree. Yeah, do you know that phenomenon like is there something? Yeah, go ahead.

47:23.23 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah. I don’t know Brian. I’d be curious about your thoughts too. But I have some guesses now with social media. I do think social media is a factor because we’re all posting our highlight reel on Facebook and then we’re comparing ourselves to each other.

47:33.55 – Brian David Crane

Yeah.

47:37.94 – Jayson Gaddis

Thinking about our family is the happiest when behind the scenes, I know it’s not the case. There’s some sort of weird competition comparison slash policing that parents do now. The information age of like too much information is not a good Thing. You know about all the dangers and for example, what’s the stat? It’s something about, Gosh, I was listening to a podcast a while back and that basically, I think it was 2 really powerful influential entrepreneurs. Maybe that is heavily involved in politics and out in the streets and meeting people and there was saying that actually, the vast majority of people that you come in contact with in the world are just good people.

But what gets reported is all the drama and negativity and that’s now news we’re not reporting on all the good. Good stuff that’s happening. We’re reporting on just trauma, and intensity, and violence, and aggression, and conflict, and now it’s like politics has become now like what gets the most views. And so if you’re louder and you’re screaming at someone, that’s going to get the most views and go viral. And I just think that kind of culture is helps. Like we have a negative negativity bias in our brain.

So we’re always going to be drawn to the negative and threats to keep ourselves safe and so that’s being shown to us 24/7 an then what’s not being shown is 90% of what’s going on which is actually things are fine and we’re good people out here and we’re treating each other. Well.

49:11.27 – Brian David Crane

And, yes..

49:28.60 – Jayson Gaddis

Ah, so I think that’s part of it. Yeah.

49:31.75 – Brian David Crane

Kind of say something there well that there’s one let’s say, there’s 3 moments that hate talks about that play on that bias that you spoke to, and he says, that in the 80’s there was the introduction of 24/7 cable news, which like let everybody know what was going horribly wrong elsewhere in the country. So as an introduction to 24/7 cable news, it was the popularity of cops. The television show that also kind of perpetuated this idea of kids being kidnapped and the..

50:04.17 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

50:07.69 – Brian David Crane

Creator or at least the presenter in cops was a guy named shoot. I cannot review John Walsh and his child had been abducted and he was also very much. In favor of this milk cartoon campaign, where they would put photos of kids who’d been abducted into the milk cartoons, that were in public schools and so or in schools and so the combination of these 3 kinds of all happen. You know it.

50:23.92 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah. Or remember..

50:34.50 – Brian David Crane

Like a short time span led to this perception of outside the house. Everything is dangerous. There’s sexual predators everywhere your kid’s always at risk of being abducted and then Haid goes through in the book and says what’s the age at which your child was?

50:42.67 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

50:51.51 – Brian David Crane

First allowed on unsupervised play like to or just to be unsupervised. Let’s say just to walk to the grocery store. What not? And it’s Peter Gray what you sent me on the professor of play from Boston college.

50:55.15 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

51:08.28 – Brian David Crane

Like in the 1940s it would be like 4 years old that the kids were allowed to and now this current generation. It’s 12 like they’re not allowed unsupervised play until they’re almost 12 years old, right? So late so all that to say like how did you handle that with your children with. Post this traumatic incident with your boy like how did you kind of swing the pendulum back? What came after that?

51:34.53 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, it’s a good question I think there are a couple things. One is when we would do play dates and interactions and how are kids with other families like in our old neighborhood. For example..

51:47.17 – Brian David Crane

Yes.

51:51.41 – Jayson Gaddis

Because we were a no-screen family and we didn’t have a TV in our house, every kid in the neighborhood had a TV in their house and probably a TV in every room, and all those parents had iPads that their kids could play on and play video games and do whatever they wanted on. So when our kid would go over to their houses. They were just like whoa and that. That helped solidify for us that we don’t want our kids playing in those homes, not because there’s stranger danger but because there’s screens everywhere.

And we were already in a very protective stance around too many screens. So we’re like we’re not going to expose our kids to all kinds of screens. So if that house has just non-stop movies on and cartoons, we’re just not going to do playdates with that family. So what ended up happening is we ended up not being that social. Honestly, there were a lot of things like just playing at home and inviting people to our house and being very selective and kind of self-righteous honestly.

About the kind of kids that our kids could play with and kind of the kind of families. We wanted to interact because you go over on a Saturday and there’s just non-stop football in the house on TV, and that’s just not who we are. It’s like it’s just different values like where are our people and there was no one in our neighborhood that we could.

53:02.64 – Brian David Crane

No.

53:09.96 – Jayson Gaddis

Within walking distance. So we’d have to drive and do different kinds of play dates, right? So that contributed a part of it and then we were on the later side. Honestly, it was probably 12-11-12 that we started letting way more unsupervised play. And now with our son who’s 15 obviously it’s like he’s there. He’s mostly not with us all day long and riding this public bus and to and from school and interacting with kids. We have no idea who he’s interacting with it. He comes home and talks about it but it feels right now. It feels good.

And our daughter. It’s little different with her because she’s still at the Waldorf school and she has amazing friends and we feel very very psyched there and again we live in a neighborhood where there’s no other kids so it’s not like our kids can just go down the street and play with Billy. There is no Billie on our street. It’s a bunch of seniors. So I don’t know if it’s not. It’s not perfect but we’re working with it and we’re doing our best to let go more and more in terms of the outside world. The social outside world plays.

54:16.26 – Brian David Crane

Yeah I think what you said though to be clear in the distinction like your kids can go. You know there’s like okay, cool like there’s no screens. They can use their imagination. They read. They can do anything other than be on screens. It’s just they’re not necessarily. With other kids when this is happening right? like they can be outside. They can know they’re in this neighborhood and so they are.

54:37.26 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, and now that our kids are older. We’re trying to like our daughter who had some girlfriends over recently and we’re doing what’s called a phone stack. Where it’s like cool you come into our house and the phones go on the counter and if you need to connect with your parents or something, please do, but we want you guys playing without your phone. So you guys don’t need to sit in the hammock and look at pictures on your phones or you sit and do selfies all day long. Just set the phones down and go.

55:04.34 – Brian David Crane

That’s cool.

55:11.56 – Jayson Gaddis

Go throughout our house and go outside and go do stuff.

Social Media and Children’s Privacy

55:13.00 – Brian David Crane

How have you approached it? I was talking to my wife this morning at breakfast. But how have you approached photos of your kids on social media?

55:20.49 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, so a scary article went out there. I think that our mutual friend posted in a group that we’re a part of. I watched this video and it was so scary that I was annoyed because I was like, this feels like scare tactics to me. It feels like paranoia and I’m just not interested in that kind of marketing. I’ve been posting photos of my kids on social media for years and I’m just not Afraid. In the way that some people are very protective of their kids. And kids these days are posting photos of themselves all over the place, especially when they get social media.

Our kids are not posting videos of photos of themselves because they don’t have social media but that’s the norm now, and so I’m just like the deep fakes and all the things that are out there and the stealing identities, I know that goes on but I’m not. I’m just not scared about it. And we have a private Instagram account with a family only account where I’ve posted most of our..

56:19.22 – Brian David Crane

Makes sense. Yeah, we got it.

56:29.16 – Jayson Gaddis

Kids photos since they’re really little that aren’t public. And that feels like a nice alternative even though they’re still on Meta, but it’s fine. Yeah, how about you? You guys, be careful. You guys do care.

56:32.77 – Brian David Crane

Down..

56:36.27 – Brian David Crane

Yeah go, exactly. To me the distinction is if it’s a public account or a private account I mean I keep both of my Instagram and my Facebook are both private and I’m not yeah I don’t want.

56:53.96 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

57:01.55 – Brian David Crane

To attract weirdos at the same time I also kind of regularly go through an audit and actually get rid of people that I’m no longer in contact with just because I also..

57:14.80 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

57:14.97 – Brian David Crane

Remember from high school people that you think back, and you go that person’s kind of weird like who knows what’s happened to them in the past 20 years, right? Like I accepted their friend request. Whatever, a long time ago, but I don’t have a problem putting photos up. I just also don’t want to do it publicly.

57:22.90 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

57:33.83 – Brian David Crane

Mainly cause I just think there’s like weird people doing stuff that I don’t want to perpetuate. That’s kind of my private life. I don’t mind it being on Instagram or Facebook on Meta own properties I just don’t want to be public. That’s my feeling I know? Yeah, but.

57:42.74 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, that makes sense. I think that’s a good move. Yeah I mean the irony here again is I see parents who are hyper vigilant about the photos but incredibly loose with screens. For example, I was in an event and I saw this guy, and his wife was sitting at breakfast and their daughter was 2 years old and they had her in a high chair, and they had their phone sitting in front of her playing cartoons.

And so that they could have an adult conversation and I was like, Wow. Something is terribly wrong here and now this is the same family that’s also hypervigilant about having photos of her online. And I’m like what’s worse here your kid getting indoctrinated to like a screen as a pacifier.

58:31.94 – Brian David Crane

Yellow. Yeah.

58:33.90 – Jayson Gaddis

Because you want to have an adult conversation like a screen is child care and look if you’re in a lower socio and on economic class and you’re incredibly poor and you’re working 3 jobs, I get it that the screen is good child care and that’s that’s maybe a better alternative than a lot of things.

58:52.10 – Brian David Crane

What’s the cheapest? Yeah.

58:53.36 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, it’s cheap and it’s just like wow, it makes sense but for privileged people I don’t think there’s any excuse for that. I think it’s bullshit.

59:01.96 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, it’s interesting to talk about that because one of the articles that you first shared with me was from this Boston college professor, Peter Gray, who looked at this thing which is called the Tennessee experiment and it was pre-K. I want to get the phrasing right? Academically focused pre-K but for disadvantaged and low-income families, specifically, and like across the state they implemented this and I grew up in Tennessee. I think it was one of the reasons that they sold.

59:24.88 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, but..

59:33.90 – Brian David Crane

Implementing the lottery in Tennessee was going to use it to fund this pre-K program. And so now they can go back and look at the outcomes from this pre-K program, just kind of give people a sense of what it was. It’s like play-based pre-K which is 4 years old, 7 years old versus academic-based pre-K which in the way that he describes it is. They’re sitting there for 90 minutes having a story read to him where they’re trying to do arithmetic at 4 years old right? Is that what I got? Yeah.

59:58.14 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, 5 hours was 5 hours a day or a week of curriculum that was like expert curriculum teachers preparing for them. Yeah, getting ready for the academics.

01:00:07.93 – Brian David Crane

Two kind of like get them ready for college. Yeah, and the outcomes from it were these kids generally speaking didn’t like school later on they had a lot more behavioral issues they were. So ADHD or different, I’m not gonna do the terminology correctly. But like the outcomes for the kids were noticeably worse and it was sold as this we’re gonna lift these kids out of poverty program, right? That was the idea of it. Yeah, so I say that because I think it’s like also in the same vein with this.

01:00:34.77 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

01:00:44.37 – Brian David Crane

With like using the phone as a pacifier which, it’s like you, I mean you had a kid, right? It’s like they want to play and they got a lot of energy and let’s play. Yeah.

Play-Based Learning and Academic Pressure

01:00:52.40 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, and there’s something very healing for adults, if we get down on our knees and play with our little toddlers, it’s amazing. It was so healing for me. I was a part time stay at home dad for 5 years. My wife and I shared the parenting duties tell our kids till my son was 5 or 6 and it was, I would if I had to rewind the tapes I’d go back and do it exactly the same way. It was so freaking rewarding for me and it was triggering as hell, because there was a lot of unfinished business I had between zero and five as a child, that got activated by my zero to five year old. So that brought me back into therapy and had me work on some.

01:01:16.71 – Brian David Crane

Yeah. And..

01:01:30.65 – Jayson Gaddis

Parts of my history that were much needed and it was very healing. And it was so awesome and I’m actually really glad that the tech on the phones was lower than it’d be harder now as a parent.

Parental Involvement and Play

01:01:48.90 – Jayson Gaddis

To set the phone down and just be present with my kid, and I don’t know if you’ve ever played with your baby there hold your kid now. Yeah that age it’s like it is very dreamy and sleepy. So it’s like you can be holding and playing and playing blocks or something and all a sudden you’re like falling asleep.

01:01:54.35 – Brian David Crane

10 months.

01:02:06.26 – Jayson Gaddis

Which could be very restful. It’s like we all need some more parasympathetic tone in our nervous systems instead of all this sympathetic jacked up stress, so kids are good for us. Being around children is so good for adults. I just wish more adults would set their phones down.

01:02:19.47 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, that has been I have been unbelievably pleasantly surprised at the amount of joy I get out of it. Not just how happy she is but the amount of joy that I get on a daily basis by just the stupidest stuff you know.

01:02:33.42 – Jayson Gaddis

And if..

01:02:39.20 – Brian David Crane

And the stupid songs, the stupid rhymes and just the stupid crap I can make up and I got an audience that just thinks it’s awesome. And I can screw around do whatever I want to and dance and like just be like a total idiot and she thinks it’s amazing.

01:02:39.20 – Jayson Gaddis

Right?

01:02:49.50 – Jayson Gaddis

Exactly, so beautiful. Yeah.

01:02:55.52 – Brian David Crane

Laser focused used and yeah, it’s really a beautiful thing. I’m really enjoying it which is partially why when I kind of bring you back to like when I read this stuff about what happens with kids, it makes me really sad honestly like it makes me, I don’t know if your childhood was play-based.

01:03:11.18 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, and..

01:03:14.67 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, did you have a play-based childhood?

01:03:17.87 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah I think so. I would say so it was heavily monitored by how well I did in sports. But for the most part I had a lot of hands off parenting. Which there are downsides to it but there were a lot of upsides. Also I was outside constantly.

01:03:33.72 – Brian David Crane

To put you out of self. Sorry, good job.

01:03:35.86 – Jayson Gaddis

I mean part of the reason I was outside was because my parents didn’t get me and so I was much happier outside climbing trees, and playing with my friends in the neighborhood, and looking for bugs and animals than I was at home because I felt so alone at home and I think that can be a nice alternative for kids who have a very challenged family life.

Is it an advantage to have a play-based that’s like going outside and you like to learn about life because your parents certainly are going to teach you? Yeah.

01:04:10.67 – Brian David Crane

And immerse yourself in your imagination like that’s a lot of what it’s like escapism for. It’s the origin of escapism which is you have to imagine it to begin with and like the only way to imagine it is you start to? Yeah, come up with characters and roles.

01:04:13.80 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah. Totally.

01:04:28.41 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, okay. If people I feel like we need to be respectful of your time I know you said you were a bit sick before we got onto this call and your kids are out of school this week because of Pentecost.

01:04:37.77 – Jayson Gaddis

Couple and so in finals week here. So he’s got a text here and today a couple tests but he’s good and my daughter’s actually on a class trip down in the sand dunes, great sand dunes in Colorado.

01:04:53.90 – Brian David Crane

No, and no tech obviously.

01:04:57.30 – Jayson Gaddis

No tech left their phones behind so great. I was just like this is so awesome, like just her phone’s sitting on the counter right now and she’s just playing with her class in the you know in the mountains.

01:05:01.30 – Brian David Crane

Yeah.

01:05:08.55 – Brian David Crane

What did you think about there being an interest as you described this with your daughter? What did you think about the story that Jonathan tells in the book about he has kids, that he’s in New York City and he has one who is 13 and takes the subway to the US open. And then the train on the way back is closed and they’re in Manhattan and he’s out in queens or whichever borough it is where the US open is. And his son has to learn how to get back home and makes it home by 1 in the morning but the story.

The other part of the story is that they had these phones and Jonathan hates trying to kind of like weigh this find my or surveillance tendency of parents to want to watch the blue dot and see where their kids are at so they might not be on social media.

01:05:53.52 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah. I think as a bummer I don’t. I haven’t once used that feature with my kids probably because I know where they are and I know they’re..

01:05:57.25 – Brian David Crane

They might not have screens but they still have a tracking capability. Yes, so what do you think about that?

01:06:11.47 – Jayson Gaddis

Responsible and all that. But it’s a little weird, especially like I’ve heard of people in Texas like using chips and they’re putting chips in their kids’ skin under their skin kind of like a cat. If you need to lose your cat or something. It’s a little odd. I feel a little like..

01:06:11.67 – Brian David Crane

Yes.

01:06:29.90 – Jayson Gaddis

I mean we’re moving into more and more surveillance in the world. Like I used to my friends and I in high school one of our things was we had this, we started this club called APTP – Advanced Placement Toilet Papering and 2 in the morning, we go out toilet papering people’s houses. And I was telling my son about it recently and I don’t think he can do that anymore.

Because everybody’s houses have cameras and now they want to like if you toilet paper them, they’re going to like to know who you are and they’re going to like to make you come clean it up and it’s not going to be as fun. So why would you want to go toilet paper or someone’s house but that was such an exciting adventure right for me and it was very innocent.

01:07:03.58 – Brian David Crane

Yeah.

01:07:07.90 – Jayson Gaddis

For the most part, it’s just sort of like gone are those days that kids can do that kind of mischief that’s fairly safe. Now with cameras everywhere and chips and shit, I’m just like man this is I don’t know it’s kind of a buzzkill.

01:07:22.89 – Brian David Crane

Yeah I used toilet paper as well. You’re gonna have it now, you can have ring cameras on people’s doors. They’ll see you run up and they can freeze frame. It looks at your kid’s face. Sit down, this is Jason’s boy, he’s Kahibi. He’s to be heard 8 in the morning to clean this up and you’re like, yeah.

01:07:33.39 – Jayson Gaddis

Exactly now. Yeah.

01:07:42.47 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, I don’t I think that it’s a tricky balance. So like it’s your girl you want her, you want to be self-reliant and independent and yeah that she’s going to get some scrapes to do that.

01:07:58.48 – Jayson Gaddis

She’s gonna get sick, and I feel better. I feel way more careful or worried about her online than I do out in the world. You know sure if she’s walking home from a parking garage in downtown Denver you know.

01:08:05.10 – Brian David Crane

Yes.

01:08:13.78 – Jayson Gaddis

11 or 1 in the morning I’m going to be scared of course. But what are the chances that’s going to happen anytime soon. I’m way more scared about the online stuff with her.

01:08:21.62 – Brian David Crane

Yeah I mean that’s the really dark side of a lot of this. There’s a story in the book of they talk about this children online privacy protection act – COPPA, and how kids are supposed to be 13 to even create an account but it’s not verified. There’s no parental consent. There’s also no penalty for the company if they allow them in beforehand, and then there’s a story in the book where hate talks to Zuckerberg and says, In 2019, I was able to sign up.

And created an account without any checks and it was a fake account. You guys didn’t do anything about it and Zuckerberg says we’re working on it, and he comes back 4 years later and tests Instagram again and it’s the same thing. It’s able to create an account with zero problems and then they go into this whistleblower story. From Meta where it’s an intentional part of Instagram’s growth strategy to allow kids as young as possible in because it allows them to get hooked and start to do it.

And then also the algorithm feeds them really age inappropriate stuff and I’m talking like child pornography or stuff like solicitations like you would never even want your daughter to see it, no matter what age she is, and they’re able to be messaged and solicited in ways that like you would find that or that I would find like absolutely really upsetting. And they got this little device in their hand. It goes right underneath your nose.

01:09:48.26 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, totally. I wish it was as simple as some of Apple’s parental controls where you could just turn off the explore page. For example, just turn like hide the features you didn’t like. That it seems like a simple fix where so Instagram they would only show pictures of the people they’re following, like their friends. I mean there’s little things they can do in that direction that would be huge but they’re not doing shit because they want the kids to be addicted asap.

01:10:18.77 – Brian David Crane

Yep, because then they build the habit and they do well for advertisers later on, right? That was also something Peter great talked about one of his books which is one of his posts..

01:10:25.94 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah.

01:10:31.24 – Brian David Crane

Television was a way for advertisers to get at kids in the 1950s and so that’s why they were super happy with Mickey Mouse Club being so popular all of a sudden. The kids were stationary and they could have whatever coco puffs or whatever was popular in the 1950’s like presented to them over and over again, right?

So yeah I think that attention economy stuff just you and I both. We have you know we work online. We have digital businesses and we make our living there. But I think there’s a real agent appropriate component to it. Yeah.

01:11:04.82 – Jayson Gaddis

Agreed on the same page. Yep.

01:11:07.68 – Brian David Crane

Cool. So if people want to follow you, people want to check out more about what you’re doing. What should they do? Where should they go?

01:11:11.10 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, our podcast is a great place to start relationship school. The relationship school podcast anywhere podcasts are and its Relationshipschool.com. If you want courses and training on how to get better at this part of your life.

01:11:24.35 – Brian David Crane

When you also did a very highly regarded podcast or podcast series on fatherhood on the relationship school podcast, right?

01:11:34.26 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, for new dads, expectant dads that’s been passed around a lot in the dad community. Yeah, just advice for new dads that maybe is unusual and confronting because that standard dad advice out. It is not very good I don’t think.

01:11:48.76 – Brian David Crane

Have you done one for teenagers, what dads with teenagers or dads like because obviously you’ve got opinions here that your kids have turned out well, that like have you gone and done something for an older age cohort? Let’s say..

01:12:06.44 – Jayson Gaddis

It’s a good question. It’s a good suggestion. I’m kind of hearing that as a suggestion not specifically that but I did one with my son a couple months back it was cool. Talking about his transition from Waldorf to public high school and just..

01:12:12.35 – Brian David Crane

Hence.

01:12:20.11 – Jayson Gaddis

Kind of kid these days he has lots of opinions but I and then I did one with my whole family with my daughter and my like how we do conflict at home, how we work out our differences. That was pretty fun but maybe it’s time to do another one on just my thoughts on parenting teenagers.

01:12:36.20 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, but that’s cool like inside how the sausage is made inside of the egg Gaddis family.

01:12:43.26 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah, good suggestion. Thanks Brian.

01:12:52.84 – Brian David Crane

Yeah sure. Okay, thanks for your time and we’d be in touch.

01:12:53.89 – Jayson Gaddis

Yeah great connecting man. Thank you.