Watch the full video of our conversation on the Spread Great Ideas YouTube channel.

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Full Transcript of Our Conversation

Introduction to Bo Bink and the Kraamzorg Role

00:01.28 – Brian David Crane

Cool. Welcome. Today I’m going to be talking with Bo Bink, who’s the Kraamzorg following the birth of our second child six days ago, Josephine May. What is a Kraamzorg, you’re wondering? It’s part of what the Dutch call the Kraamzorgster, which is the system of in-home care immediately following the birth of every child in the Netherlands.

Bo’s been a Kraamzorg for 22 years. In fact, as she’s sitting here across from me, Josie May is asleep on Bo’s chest. Almost. Almost asleep, yeah. We’re going to be talking about the unique Dutch model for childbirth, which is preventative, low intervention, and community-based, a model which, statistically speaking, has some of the best outcomes in the world for both mother and baby.

And it costs approximately 20% of what giving birth in the U.S. would. So, Bo, glad to have you on. Thanks for being here. So I was looking at some of the numbers before we started the show. I just want to give folks who are listening a sense of this. If you look at statistics like maternal mortality or infant mortality in the Netherlands, sorry, in the US, you’re five to six times more likely for the mother to die than you are in the US. Yeah.

Infant mortality is 40% less in the Netherlands. C-section rates are 50% less. Preterm birth rates are 40% less. And breastfeeding is higher here than it is in the US. And we’re going to get into some of these other numbers later about how all this comes about. But the point of the point with just the initial statistics is to say the Dutch have this system that is both midwife-centric

Before the birth and then kramzorg-centric after the birth. Yeah, what is it that you like about your job? like How is it that you… Yeah. How did you wind up doing this and why is it that you think it’s so good for the mother and the baby?

01:58.25 – Bo Bink

Yeah. I think to say the first is that you really must be a person for it because it has, as a Kraamzorg, you are a lot of things. Kraamzorg is like you’re the spokesperson, you’re the medical check-upper, you’re the breastfeeding expert. You’re doing a little bit of housekeeping. You’re the psychologist. You’re a psychologist sometimes, yes. Definitely you have to radar directly in the first, well, let’s say the first two days, what people want from you.

Some people who have a first child, they just want a lot of information and to see how things work. And they ask a lot while with the second child, they already know a lot of things, so you can run through the obligated things that you have to tell and then go to other things or maybe deeper, deeper stuff.

So for me, I started out doing an office job. As a bookkeeper, you said. Yeah, as a bookkeeper, just because in that time could, you would like, that was the thing to do if you want to earn some money. And I just was a bit clueless about what I wanted. Well, when I was really young, I told my mother. I wanted to be a midwife. Oh, you’re not agreeing.

She has a little, Josie has a little bit of a crampiness. Oh Yeah.

03:41.05 – Brian David Crane

Okay. For those not familiar with what a Kraamzorg is, let me describe it. In my words, you fill in where I’m wrong about this or what I’ve missed. But basically, after the birth, you can go to the birth. You can also, or you’re expected to be at the birth. And then for the week following the birth, you come to the birth mother’s home.

04:10:02 – Bo Bink

Yes..

04:11.23 – Brian David Crane

And in our case, 9 to 4, and you come in, you sit with the mom, you see how the night was, you see how the baby’s doing. You check the baby’s weight, you check the mom, you check her physically, see how she’s healing.

You do things like prepare food for the mom and for the baby, chat with them and help them with breastfeeding. That’s a big one, like, confidence in terms of how to get the baby to latch is the baby eating enough. What else?

04:44.62 – Bo Bink

Yeah I mean If there are problems there, yeah then you can you’re making a plan of how you think you would proceed in that week. And also you do some chores in the house.

Not just that everything is light for the family. It’s smooth. and they can still run their things like they’re used to, yeah but you’re kicking in where they just can’t because they’re all tired or have another child or whatever the mother is doing.

A Day in the Life of a Kraamzorg

05:21.34 – Bo Bink

So yeah, we’re not a housekeeper, but you do keep it where needed. yeah I mean, especially with laundry, you have loads of it, you have a baby. And that’s fine. It’s all for the greater good. That’s it.

05:38.52 – Brian David Crane

Yeah. Because I think it’s important to just understand that like, if you’re a mom and you’ve come, let’s say you give birth at a hospital and you come home, you walk into this house, you have a new baby with you and you don’t have family around. And you don’t have a Kraamzorg who’s there. I would just imagine it would feel incredibly lonely. Yeah. Like incredibly lonely.

And that you’re like, you have all this time and energy and focus that goes into the birth, let’s say, but anything that comes post birth, like what’s the feeding schedule for the baby? What’s it like, you’re there to support all of those things. And I think it’s so nice, number one, that you come home.

Number two, that you know the midwife comes to the home, that the local Jemente comes to the home. Like it’s all you don’t have to. The mother doesn’t have to go out, doesn’t have to sit in a car, isn’t expected to to take their child out into the… you know there’s it’s like It’s very home-centric and family-centric, right?

06:49.79 – Bo Bink

Yeah, yeah it is. And I think, well… to talk about the care you get. And of course, in Holland, this is a very unique thing. It is never to be done. Every time I want to talk, yeah you’re interfering. What is that about? You don’t like my voice? What is that?

So, for example, in Germany, they have this system where they will let the midwife come to their homes, but just for a checkup, like once a day, to see how the breastfeeding goes. Are you okay? Do you have any medical issues? And then they’ll leave it again. So that at least is something.

But furtherly, the whole Kraamzorg is unique in Holland. And I used to think that was just normal. But now I know how it goes in other countries. I’m so grateful to do this job because I’m self-employed and the first reason I wanted to do this is, well, to be honest, it earns a lot more. But the second was I would like to help people from the beginning.

Why Kraamzorg is Unique to the Netherlands

08:12.59 – Bo Bink

So they call me, they see my website and say they’re pregnant and then that’s the happy news, right? So I register them, I go through how through the process of administration and how it will go to have around week 30 we come to their homes to do an intake and also to hear about their expectations and how they think the breastfeeding will go, how their interpretation of that is, if they even want to give breastfeeding, because some women can’t because of an operation or have traumatic experiences.

So it’s very… you listen to the person and the whole family actually, because the partner is often there too. And then, you know a bit more about the family. So if you start working there or even do the labor, they have a trusting person around them. Not only the midwife who they saw earlier in the pregnancy, but also the supporting part, which I do, is helping the midwife, making sure the surroundings are set up and everybody’s relaxed to make the birth a relaxed thing.

So in order to not have complications for that reason. Sorry I’m putting a dummy into Josey’s mouth. But anyway what was I saying, just to say that I’m so grateful to to do this job and why I became a self-employed person

Building Trust Through Early Connection

09:56.10 – Bo Bink

It is that I can do the whole process and it’s really rewarding and it of course when you start this job you’re not all you don’t know it all you get educated the basics and you have to learn in the field and as you grow personally you grow also in your job if you’re interested not everybody is and or or wants to do all the parts of the Kraamzorg and if you do it’s perfect.

And then when you leave the family with a feeling that they are in their own strength and that they can handle the things that they know everything, what is to know about taking care of the baby, yeah, it feels rewarding. And I think you have less complications because of that.

10:51.98 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, the data bears that out. The postpartum rates in the Netherlands.

10:56.70 – Bo Bink

And when they started talking about, in the government, that they started talking about taking away the Kraamzorg because it was a luxury. I was like, man, how can you do that? It’s such a positive impulse for healthy pregnant and giving birth women. And also, the doctors in our country are, how do you say it, full, their practices are overloaded with people. So if you take something like this out or lessen it with hours or whatever, they will be so packed.

Empowering Families Through Knowledge

11:35.39 – Bo Bink

You get more problems, more pointing to the hospital. Yeah, just go there, go to the ER or go to the first aid. It will be terrible.

11:47.93 – Brian David Crane

More expensive, worse outcomes. More trauma, more traumatic, let’s say.

11:53.93 – Bo Bink

Yeah, definitely. So, I’m happy that it’s not happening now. It’s postponed. Yeah. But we do get less hours to divide and they want us to do more families in one week because we’re still lacking in kraamverzorgenden. We’re still… so, come here and apply.

12:18.93 – Brian David Crane

And learn the ways, yeah.

12:19.01 – Bo Bink

Learn the ways.

12:20.00 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, but I think it’s interesting because what you touch on there was, you and I were talking prior to the show, that there was in the 90s a concentrated effort in the Netherlands to go against the medicalization of birth.

And really, let’s call it fortify and say midwives are important and midwives are… Yeah, the first line of care for pregnant women. They contribute. They should have their own practices. They should have their own autonomy and legal status. It’s not like a second-rate setup. And so then from the 90s onwards.
The midwife system really developed and expanded to provide very good primary care for pregnant women. And it was only in the case of a medical birth that you wound up with an OB-GYN.

And so generally speaking, the midwives prior to the birth, prior to and up to the birth and then the Kramzorgs after provided a very nice safety net for everyone who is for every woman who’s pregnant in the Netherlands. Without needing to go into the hospital system and without needing to be seen by a doctor effectively, right?

13:43.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah it’s not necessary. And the midwife is still and responsible so if something would happen in the “gram way” as we call it yeah.

13:56.30 – Brian David Crane

You call the midwife.

13:58.00 – Bo Bink

I always have to. We have to of course. I’m that experience that I hardly do it, but officially, and if there’s a necessity for it, you have to call the midwife in case of breast infection or whatever medical thing is going on.

The Midwife-Kraamzorg Partnership

14:16.74 – Bo Bink

But also social things. And that’s where we also kick in.

14:21.00 – Brian David Crane

And what do you mean by social things?

14:22.00 – Bo Bink

Well, not everybody has a good nest, let’s say. I mean, some people have bad relationships, they don’t have money, the homing is really terrible sometimes.

14:38.00 – Brian David Crane

You see a lot of addiction.

14:39.73 – Bo Bink

Yeah, I’ve seen that too, especially since alcohol is something that is accepted everywhere, yeah but it’s so easy to get addicted to. And then where is the threshold between an addiction or just having a glass of wine in the afternoon.

So I’ve seen that and we’ve been lying about it because they know that there is an eye that watches them. And if it goes wrong, we also have, it’s called HMK. It’s a company at which you can go to as a professional.

To tell them that you think something’s wrong. Like this feeling that you have, you cannot put your finger on it, but you think, I don’t think this is going well. And there’s a youth use healthcare care center that’s also on top of that, like where you go every month with your child to get checkups.

15:44.61 – Brian David Crane

This is the consultative bureau?

15:46.00 – Bo Bink

Consultative bureau, yes. So especially the first year, you go there every month. Get kind of a checkup, but also they weigh the baby. They ask you how you’re doing, if you’re sleeping, how the breastfeeding is going.

So they’re all small, yeah not seeable, but it’s a checkup how things are going and if you’re okay. And the melding where you can go when there’s really something wrong. I think it’s good. We get educated now because in earlier days, like five years ago,

We had to go through the midwife, which is fine, by the way. But we are also obligated now that we can do it ourselves when we have this feeling. We don’t have to go directly through the midwife anymore.

I don’t know if it’s an extra positive thing. But anyway, I think the intention of those companies are.. it’s great. It helps you. But what I wanted to say about families that I see, addiction is one thing, but one time, I will make it short, but I was appointed to a house where, how do you say that..

Where women, they take their passports, they have to do sleeping with men and then under false promises. So they get their sleep.

17:21.00 – Brian David Crane

Human trafficking.

17:22.70 – Bo Bink

Human trafficking. That’s what I wanted to say. There’s a house for it that women who got pregnant from that, they go to the pool. Yeah, it’s terrible. I can tell you there’s a market for pregnant women.

17:37.08 – Brian David Crane

That men want to sleep with?

17:39.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah. It’s horrible. So I went there and I, and you can see and do something for those.

And so your job is not only making sure the medical side of it is good and the breastfeeding goes well. But it’s, it’s also to, you take care of them. You listen to their story and you, you can help them. Once I had a disabled, like she was from human trafficking, but she was not totally well.

Well-minded or how do you say that? Yeah, so she could not understand everything, but she got her child and she wanted to keep it, but actually it was not really possible. So I flew in and yeah, the only thing I could do is teach her how to take care of herself, make pasta with a sauce, go to the grocery store, and know what to get.

When Birth Care Meets Social Support

18:38.63 – Bo Bink

And I was so happy doing that. That is the main thing about being a Kraamzorg, to know what the core thing is, where you should look for, what people need.

And of course, in 90% of the cases, it’s about the same. We have things that we need to tell about the diseases, about safety, about breastfeeding, but there’s also this percentage where you do the extra or where you do what is needed.

And that is really fulfilling. And I was, I had to cry that day because it was an emotional thing because ah the next time I went there for another lady, she came to me. She ran to me. I said, where’s Alexander? Alexander is gone. And Alexander was brought to another house.

19:36.00 – Brian David Crane

Put up for adoption or?

19:39.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah. For adoption because it was not due. I could see, I could tell. I have to talk with the, who says it? The one who was head of the house.

She asked me, what do you think? What are your findings? So I said, yeah, I don’t see this working out well. But I don’t want to be the one to tell, take her child away. It’s something that’s very painful. No mother should go through that. But those things I see.

And of course, not every day but they stick to you. And this job is more than only after birth care. So I think it’s important, if you understand what is asked from you.

20:33.00 – Brian David Crane

So, I think that you had told a story before we went on the show of giving birth, you’re not giving birth, helping with the birth…

20:49.75 – Bo Bink

Assisting, yeah.

20:50.40 – Brian David Crane

Assisting with the birth of a woman who wanted to do it in one of the houseboats, in the canal. You want to share that story?

20:59.25 – Bo Bink

Yes, of course. I was on shift and at that time, I think I still worked on payroll, but well, it doesn’t matter. Anyway, I got called and, where do I have to go? And it was on the boat in the canal. And we have these boats where you can just live on. Yeah, people do that. It’s a different way and you don’t have a lot of space but you just have what is necessary and you live.

And you have a nice view of the water. So those people were very zen and everything was kind of they had like this livestock I don’t know what it clay on the wall everywhere and inserts with old-fashioned candles and it was like fairy tale and then in the living room there was a I don’t know how you call it a hole and not a hole but a tile it was not elevated but lowered, yeah. And there was this you can rent that in any house you can do that bath.

And it’s a bath, you rent, you inflate it, and then you pour the water in there, and there’s a kind of a seat for the truck, for the pregnant lady, and the midwife have extra long sleeves. What do you think of that? Yeah, they’re wearing gloves that cover up. Gloves that cover up like a farmer, to go and have a feel but actually the birth labor, they don’t do a lot.

You’re allowed to go in there as long as your water, your membranes are still intact. You can go in there because as soon as they break, you have this extra chance of infection because dirty water can come in. So when the membranes break, you have to be a bit more alert and it happens.

Home Birth on a Houseboat

23:05.87 – Bo Bink

You have to be almost there, you know? And then, I was like in the middle of the night in this fairy tale house in the water a boat also in the water. It was a very nice experience and there was music and smoke candles. The baby came out and yes, sure. There’s blood too. But yeah, the baby already opened his eyes in the water. Crazy. Yeah.

It’s an experience I will never forget again. And it was very nice. And then in the end, when everybody was showered and dressed and checked up by the midwife, that happens, of course, for the baby. Then I left the boat, not the house. I left the boat and I cycled home.

24:01.00 – Brian David Crane

The birds are chirping first thing in the morning.

24:04.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah. You listen to the birds and you’re driving home. You’re totally wrecked, but you’re so happy. You’re so fulfilled that you could assist and help and leave them like, okay, you’re coming in a few hours, you’re coming back.

Of course you first go to sleep. And then you will come back in the afternoon to check up on us. Well, how good can it get?

24:33.00 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, I think that there’s two parts to the Dutch birth system that to me are very special. The one is, but there’s multiple ones, but two of them to me stand out. One of them is the encouragement and the acceptance of home births, like what you’re talking about. 1 out of 5 here is a home birth, maybe 20 to 25%, 1 out of 4, 1 out of 5, depending on who you ask. In the States, it’s less than 2%. And for us, the first birth was a home birth, an absolutely phenomenal experience.

Second birth was at a local hospital, also a great experience. I can say though that the home birth was less stressful as far as you just, you didn’t have to get into a car. You didn’t have to leave your home. You didn’t have to worry about packing anything up. That was a really beautiful experience. So I love the focus on home births and the acceptance of it.

And then there is also a big push in the Netherlands to encourage the mother to, let’s call it, embrace the pain. I don’t know what to call it. Yeah. Embrace the pain and go through it and just let it come to you because it’s going to help you. And you see it and the reason I say that is because you see it in the statistics as there’s 75% less usage of epidurals.

Like it’s roughly 25% in the Netherlands and 70%-75% in the States. And you just have like, so you have, let’s call it 20% home births. And even in the home births, like they’re they’re not allowed to do the epidurals, right? Like if you’re going to do an epidural, you have to go to the hospital for it.

So can you talk a little bit about the Dutch philosophy, both as a woman, as a mother, and as a Kraamzorg, as far as what birth, like, why is it that pain is welcomed? Yeah. That’s a bad way to put it. Why is pain viewed in a different way than in the other Western countries where it’s medicalized away?

26:58.90 – Bo Bink

Well, I think that basically, if you look towards history, like 100 years ago, I think in a lot of countries, the same as Holland, they were all home births because they didn’t know any better.

That was, you had your neighbor, you had your… So you had to go through all that pain. And also women were almost… It was normal that as a woman, you have pain during delivery and that’s it.

The Dutch Philosophy on Pain and Natural Birth

27:31.16 – Bo Bink

But there were also a lot of complications. But sorry, to go back to your question, I think I got lost a little bit, sorry.

27:45.00 – Brian David Crane

You’re talking about, Why did the Dutch, generally speaking, say, like, but what is pain? Like, why is pain, right?

27:54.00 – Bo Bink

It’s not such a big deal.

27:56.03 – Brian David Crane

Yeah.

27:58.00 – Bo Bink

Actually, I think, well, maybe we are strong women. No, yes we are, but for we got teached very early that to give birth is a process which includes pain. This is what you get told from a very young age off.

So you start out differently than maybe in America. where you already know if you get married before you get children, that it will be in a hospital with pain relief. And I mean, that’s a very different start. So I think a lot of it comes from that.

And yeah, but it’s not, I mean, there’s a big group who does want to have pain relief, but because we are, as a system, we’re so all about natural. Being natural and that it belongs to the process that some of them go over to the other side. And the ones who do want to get pain relief because there and I think it’s about fear also, being afraid of pain.

But if you explain to a person what pain is and where it’s needed from. I got explained by you how you got teached at the pregnancy course, what pain is for. that it’s and it’s true, but they explain it because I’ve never read a course like that. But how you explained it, it’s true.

You need the pain to get a certain necessity to continue because you know there is an end and you need to go towards that end. And the pain reminds you of the necessity of pressing, of getting that child out. And it enhances your strength and to do so.

30:11.00 – Brian David Crane

Mentally and physically.

30:12.00 – Bo Bink

Mentally and physically.

30:13.00 – Brian David Crane

Yes. I’ve heard that you will feel stronger after this is over with, right?

30:20.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah of course. You’re proud of yourself because you did it.

30:22.00 – Brian David Crane

You did it. You can’t mount the other end of it. You know you’re tough enough to handle it. You know there is an end, right? And it’s not actually harmful. This is a very natural experience.

Pain as a Biological Necessity

30:35.00 – Bo Bink

But it’s all about what you’re getting teached. I think that’s the basic thing. If you’re educated in the right way, you will probably do it that way. Because you get teached that is the normal, that the healthiest thing to do. Because I don’t know how it is in America, but I know for a fact that epidural, I don’t know the percentage, but it often goes wrong.

There’s a tube with a bone marrow where they have to go right in the middle to get both legs, the nerves and the whole system to be numbed. If it goes a bit, if they put it in a little bit too high your lungs get numbed and you have problems breathing. If it’s a little bit too low, you don’t get sedated at all. Yeah, your legs.

31:31.00 – Brian David Crane

Doesn’t do any good though. if your lower legs are numb and you’re…

31:34.00 – Bo Bink

Exactly. Yeah and I also know a story about a woman from Amsterdam. It was a thing, I think it was 20 years ago or something. She got an epidural and it was a bit too high, but so high that she could not speak, but she felt everything.
So it was too high. They cut into her. She had hell of pain and she couldn’t say anything. Now that’s horrible, right? And of course those were incidents, but just to say that it’s not a holy thing, and the epidural, it has a lot of chances to go wrong and it’s painful.

You have a hell pain of contractions and then within that pain you have to bend over to make room between the vertebrae to get the needle in. It’s not nothing.

32:31.00 – Brian David Crane

Yeah. They also.. I mean, they talked about, to speak to what you’re saying, two things in the birth course. One was about, there’s way less scheduling of births here than in the States. So, you have a due date, but like any time within, I don’t know, three, two to three weeks of that due date, the baby can come. And so one of the things the Dutch do is women have pregnancy leave that starts, what, six weeks before their due date?

33:04.00 – Bo Bink

You can. 6 to 4 weeks before the due date. You can choose.

33:08.78 – Brian David Crane

Okay. And then you also have maternity leave afterwards, but leading up to the birth, you’re going into maternity leave either 6 weeks or 4 weeks before the expected due date. And so that transmutes itself down into less stress, less worry. Let’s say they can prepare better. They get there physically, mentally, like they’re ready for the arrival of their baby.

And then, you’re not rushing to get to like a hospital where you’re trying to be medicated and sometimes needing to have a C-section, right? Like these things, they’re kind of all tied together in the sense of, well, we need to rush and we need to get it done and we need to make it.

So it’s as and like as least painful for the woman as possible. Like anyways, I say this because with my wife, her experience when she started with Josephine, with our second, having labor pains, she calls the midwife who she’s seen, I don’t know, 15 times, 10 times for checkups already. The midwife comes over, looks at her, checks her, finds out how far she’s dilated, what the contractions are like.

At that point, the midwife says, okay, cool. You should go to a hospital. You should wait. Take a shower. But again, it’s like the first level of care. We don’t immediately hop in the car and drive to the hospital as soon as she starts having labor pains, which to me is unique, right? Like, okay, cool. Like this won’t, this person’s come over who we already trust and know.

And then we reached out to you and said, okay, cool. Then we think the labor started or the contractions at least have started. And in doing that, you have this sense of like, it’s a natural, like, there’s a natural buildup to it. It’s not the sort of like, oh my gosh! we have to have an ambulance here who is…

35:09.00 – Bo Bink

Sorry to interrupt. Would you think that because you are seeing it like a positive thing, but don’t you think that maybe American people who are used to that system are a bit afraid to go through something like this?

35:25.56 – Brian David Crane

Yeah. But I think they are, but having seen it, through the Dutch system and seen how it was not an emergency. Like it was urgent, but not an emergency. And there’s a difference between the two, right? And so because it’s not treated as an emergency, you can adjust. And that’s part of the point with it.

Like, okay, you recognize that there’s going to be pain, but you also know that it’s temporary. You know you’re going to be stronger for having gone through it. You don’t necessarily need an epidural. It’s elective, right? It’s not necessarily that messaging that comes across. Trust your body. You are strong and capable. And you’re going to feel better having done this.

36:22.00 – Bo Bink

Planning everything gives so much away. You give everything away to the person that is going to create the plan. I mean, who says that your system, your body is ready?

When they say you’re ready. Yeah, they’re on top of what you need to do. To me, it sounds very strange. To me, it sounds really scary?

36:55.00 – Brian David Crane

Well, it’s like a medicalization. It’s sort of…

36:59.00 – Bo Bink

If you wouldn’t do that, then bro, it sounds like you’re scaring people. Maybe it’s not like that, but it sounds to me like that. Yeah. But well, you were…

37:16.20 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, I think that… I don’t know. I think you have the outcomes indicating that the Dutch have gotten the in-home, community-centric, thoughtfulness, right, you know?

37:33.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah. There was a time, I guess it was 2008, where there was a research that came out that Holland had a big rate of dying babies, like the caught death. And, I don’t even know why that was, but they did research. I don’t know where they did and then everybody was complaining and like we started to make the strict rules.

Also about the caught death rules. We have to say that, tell that in all the families where we go to. You have to do this not to have cot death. And also they decided through research methods that doctors like Gynecologists and that they should listen more to the mother because the intuition is very strong.

Sometimes mothers come to the Gynecologist in the hospital and when they’re medical or to the midwife and they say like yeah I feel something’s wrong or I think it’s this and that while the ratings say everything is okay. And they also adjusted that around that time. And then the rates went down again.

39:02.00 – Brian David Crane

Yeah. Is cot death a sudden infant death syndrome?

39:06.00 – Bo Bink

Yes.

39:09.44 – Brian David Crane

Do you want to share what that is for the people who don’t know? And the reason I say, can you share what it is, because I have friends of mine who have often said, I’m terrified if my baby is sleeping and doing okay, because I can’t relax.

I’m terrified the baby’s doing okay. I’m also terrified the baby’s not doing okay. And there’s just a general sense of panic 24/7.

39:33.38 – Bo Bink

Yeah, that happens more with first babies and I can understand it. It’s about, of course, fear, but also adrenaline that still runs through the woman’s body in the first couple of days.

They’re awake anyway and then they you look at their child, they don’t see anything because the child in the first days doesn’t move a lot. And they think, oh, is it breathing? So I understand it. And of course, you get those, you see it through the media, you see all the problems.

But they don’t tell you how many times it goes well. So that’s normal. I mean, negative news is always better, eh?

40:24.00 – Brian David Crane

It’s what sells.

40:25.00 – Bo Bink

It’s what sells, yes. It’s not better to itself. But cot death or how you call it?

40:33.00 – Brian David Crane

We’ve got SIDS, Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, S-I-D-S.

40:36.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah, Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. Yeah. I can pronounce. But it’s about the percentage, I don’t know, but a lot of it is about suffocation. So for example, if the child is too close to the border of the bed and there’s something soft laying there, it suffocates and it blocks the fresh air.
So a little bit of time without fresh air is okay. But if it takes too long, if it takes a whole night, then it goes slowly. A baby can go into a coma because the system cannot work.

The vital function in the body scale cannot do their job without oxygen. So that’s where the cot death comes from in general. And it happens through a lot of things. I mean I have a very good friend of mine and her son was laying on the couch being very tired with his firstborn having cramps all night and then they fell asleep together on the couch. He woke up and his child was gone and it was still very sad.

It’s been 10 years now but he was probably laying in a position where the baby was crooked with the head, and couldn’t get enough oxygen. So oxygen…

42:16.02 – Brian David Crane

And couldn’t cry and or like the cry was didn’t even know. It’s like a slow.

42:20.02 – Bo Bink

He was alone and laying down. Yeah, we don’t know that. But the heart gave up and then his child was gone. And so good education is necessary, but if you follow the rules, you shouldn’t have to go through this. I mean..

42:40.00 – Brian David Crane

Is that part of the reason, like when you come in as a Kraamzorg, you’re educating women, these new mothers or mothers, like something to be their second or third child or whatnot, but you’re educating them about this. As one example, you’re also educating them about breastfeeding, right?

42:56.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah.

42:58.00 – Brian David Crane

Those are kind of the two big ones.

Preventing SIDS and the Role of Education

43:00.00 – Bo Bink

Those are the two big ones. And then we have a few diseases where the common things that you get babies go through, like it can be the infection in the mouth and eye infections because of a stuck tear, what do you call that?

43:18.00 – Brian David Crane

Tear duct. Yeah.

43:21.57 – Bo Bink

Those are the smaller things. But the bigger things are safety, like how long you should be in a Mexicosi or in a carrier or a stroller or whatever.

43:33.72 – Brian David Crane

How to swaddle your child.

43:35.00 – Bo Bink

How to swaddle them in a good way. So they don’t.

43:40.00 – Brian David Crane

How to bathe them.

43:41.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah, how to bathe them. How the feeding, of course, how the skincare is a thing, because they dry out very easily, the nails.

43:52.52 – Brian David Crane

How to comfort the child as far as, you know, like when they have gas, when they… like this.

43:56.00 – Bo Bink

When they cry, why they cry. And after the birth, when they can be very nauseous, they can throw up slime buckets that you think holy crap there’s something wrong. Well it’s actually very normal and a baby has a good system. Right, it’s very good in self…

44:21.00 – Brian David Crane

Preservation. But all of this, sorry. Because all of what you just described to me it has two really nice functions, one is that it empowers the parents and the mother parents to feel comfortable around their newborn.

And feel like they can deal with whatever, whatever’s happening with the newborn within limits, let’s say. And the other one is that it keeps them out of the hospital and they don’t have to go.

44:53.58 – Bo Bink

I don’t want to be in the hospital. There are more bacteria there than anywhere. So you don’t want to be there.

45:00.00 – Brian David Crane

Yeah. It’s stressful. You got to get it..

45:02.00 – Bo Bink

I think that’s what we do. We teach them and we take away the fear. Because fear means adrenaline and that you don’t need in the crown tag. No. Josie thinks so too. I don’t if the mic picks it up.

45:21.21 – Brian David Crane

Josie agrees.

45:22.00 – Bo Bink

You agree, yeah? Okay. So, basically that’s what we do. It’s fun to talk to you about this because it actually makes me realize it’s been so normal for me all these years.

45:35.00 – Brian David Crane

Yeah. Yeah.

45:36.25 – Bo Bink

But it tells me a new realization of how important it is. How good it is.

45:45.00 – Brian David Crane

I have friends and family members in the States who that period after giving birth is a very dark time. It’s a very dark time. It’s a dark time for the mom. It’s a dark time for the relationship. Yeah. Because they can feel very isolated and also confused. And they’re getting conflicting information and they’re always.

46:12.64 – Bo Bink

But we do have to. When they come from the hospital sometimes. They say we have to do this with breastfeeding. And like, No. Don’t do that. And yeah, so that we have to. But I think that if you…

46:29.00 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, but you’re a human and you’re in their home as opposed to them being on social media or… I mean, I see with my wife just, when you come in and you just sit and talk with her for a while, see how she’s doing.

46:47.03 – Bo Bink

Yeah. But you also have different kinds of kraamverzorgende. So I must say that.

46:54.68 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, sure.

46:55.00 – Bo Bink

Sure. I mean, in general, we get the same education, yeah but there’s a difference between a very young person or a person who already does it for a while and the intention, this is very easy to think like, oh, that earns a lot. Let’s do that.

But I guess you get spit out quickly because when you…

47:21.00 – Brian David Crane

It’s intense, I mean, you’re throwing someone’s home. In a pressure cooker environment in the sense of like there’s a newborn there, right? Yeah. People haven’t slept. Their adrenaline is pumping.

47:26.63 – Bo Bink

You need to have respect for their ways. And how the householding is being run. But you also need to find your own boundaries because I remember in the beginning I wanted to do so well that I was running like crazy in the house, which didn’t add to relaxation.

And sometimes people just don’t know what to expect and they just ask everything of you and you need to set some boundaries. So now and since over the years, when I have an intake, you have to be very clear about what can be expected of me? This, this and this. And if you have other things, maybe it can be done, but you talk about it and you find a solution.

Maybe this I don’t do and then I can do that. And to me, I don’t really care long as it’s not really hard work. I mean, I’m here from nine to four. So yeah, it doesn’t matter as long as it contributes to the wellbeing of the family. It’s fine.

48:48.00 – Brian David Crane

Sweet. Yeah. Let’s talk a minute about costs because you did mention that being a Kraamzorg, in particular being a self-employed Kraamzorg pays well. How is it that the Kraamzorg role is paid for? And what I mean by that is um what you had told me prior to the show…

Is that when a woman is pregnant in the Netherlands, that she is by law required to notify her insurance company. Let me go back. Everyone in the Netherlands is required to have insurance, health insurance.

So they’re required to notify their health insurance company when they’re pregnant. And then as a result of that, a Kraamzorg is either assigned to them or they can find their own Kraamzorg. But you’re paid ultimately by the insurance companies. Is that right?

49:43.97 – Bo Bink

Yes. Well, it’s a little bit more complicated. There’s a thing between the companies who have transfers on payroll. They, of course, the taxes are different, but they get paid also by the insurance companies.

Often they get paid more because the liability is less they say I don’t think that’s correct but yeah that’s how they see it that if all one person make one mistake you have a lot of mistakes so they we want to have a direct line towards the insurance companies you have rates but then they take away like 20%.

50:37.48 – Brian David Crane

If you’re a solo operator?

50:39.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah.

50:40.00 – Brian David Crane

Okay.

50:41.00 – Bo Bink

So if you would say, okay, this is my company, of course you need to be registered as a company, blah, blah, blah… But as a self-employed company, that’s the first thing, what they see if you decline..It’s up to you if you decline it, then they see, aha, so they know that you’re one person. So they’re going to do that. I wanted to say this company.

51:10.14 – Brian David Crane

Yeah. It’s a cut kind of in your, it’s cutting how much they’re gonna pay you. Yeah.

51:18.00 – Bo Bink

So therefore, luckily, we went searching for a way to get at least the same. We have the same obligations. We need to have schooling. We need to have our company’s insurance. You need to make sure that you have things in order with certificates and stuff.

And of course, if you have a kind bigger company, you have a rental place, I guess. So you have more overhead. I guess you have more overhead costs. But at the same time, you get stuff back from the insurance because of your, I don’t know what you call it. It’s supposed to be like…

52:05.00 – Brian David Crane

Reimbursements?

52:07.75 – Bo Bink

Yeah. Like the costs that you pay for personnel, you know, health costs. Yeah.

52:15.00 – Brian David Crane

Yeah. Personnel costs.

52:19.00 – Bo Bink

But those things they get back from insurance. So it’s basically the same, maybe not totally the same. But anyway, we do the same job. We have to work really hard for it because when we are on our own, you need to have backups. You cannot say, yeah, okay, then we take a personal number one go to take over. No, yeah so you need to be prepared.

That costs a lot of time. You need to make a network of people who can fill in for you. And also there’s a risk of somebody coming that is not really who doesn’t have your standards or who works totally different and is not being reset.

53:05.87 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, it doesn’t maintain your standard of care, right? like because I think that there’s a point where if you’re looking at the calendar, let’s say, and you’ve got 52 bookings in the year, I don’t know how many you got, let’s say it’s 50, just for sake of argument here.

And one of the women gives birth earlier than anticipated, or one of them gives birth later than anticipated, or when now there’s some overlap in the calendar, like you’re in charge of dealing with that, right? Like you have to find a replacement or balance a…

53:34.00 – Bo Bink

In the beginning, they signed an agreement and in that agreement, It’s also saying that I’m obligated. I’m responsible and responsible for the care they get. So by law, you’re obligated to take care of that. um But what I wanted to say… So that is the thing you need to cover.

And then what we try to arrange is to get the same rates as they do. But therefore you need a kind of certification, which you can only get if you have people on payroll.

54:16.41 – Brian David Crane

So it’s a way of excluding.

53:20.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah. It’s a short story because it’s much more complicated. But anyway, so now we have this in between companies who do have all those certificates. They declined for us. So in the beginning, they asked for a lot of fee, those companies. So you could ask yourself, Hmm, is it…

54:44.00 – Brian David Crane

Is it worth it for me to be able to get the extra 20% back?

54:47.68 – Bo Bink

Yeah. But now yeah it gets better and better. And so the circumstances are very good now. So I’m with this company called Kramarakt and I can almost.. They made nice software where I can go into a portal and almost directly decline my.. decline by the insurance, but with the insurance company and get my money in a reasonable amount of time.

And they get an amount, so the Kramarakt gets an amount once a month. I pay them and not per hour and per client, which a lot of other companies did.

55:27.89 – Brian David Crane

It’s just a flat fee basically to be part of this company. Where I was going with the question, I want to be clear that the insurance companies mandate the Kraamzorg system. That’s not the right way to put it. They mandate having a Kraamzorg and Dutch citizens are mandated to have insurance. So it’s like 2 tiers there. And with the reasoning behind this is that it’s a money issue and what is in a good way.

And what I mean by that is that the Kraamzorgs, as a result of the system, result in less money spent by the insurance companies. Like there’s less hospital admissions, there’s less instances of postpartum, there’s less instances of issues with the mother and the child after the birth. Is it like that? That’s why, right?

56:20.66 – Bo Bink

Yeah, that’s true. But there’s an overhead of where the money goes through from the government.

56:32.00 – Brian David Crane

Okay.

56:33.00 – Bo Bink

And we are still not on the table of decisions. We’re still the, so we’re somewhere in the back

56:41.00 – Brian David Crane

Okay

56:42.00 – Bo Bink

So a lot of the money, we’re busy with it now. We have like one person around the table of the government where they decide where the money goes to.

56:50.00 – Brian David Crane

That’s a lot kind of lobbying on behalf of the Kraamzorgs.

56:54.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah. Discuss about the necessity and how much. But still the most money goes to the hospitals.

The Kraamzorg Model Saves Money and Lives

57:04.32 – Bo Bink

Yeah, which maybe is okay, but we hardly got, I mean, if you are on a payroll, the money you get is not that much. It’s quite low if you put it next to the companies that have the Kraamzorgs. So, but that’s of course a different branch. I mean, you have to look at the C…

57:29.05 – Brian David Crane

CEO

57:33.00 – Bo Bink

The CEO of things. But they’re still fighting to get payroll people that are better in salaries. That’s why I’m always saying, why don’t you get self-employed? It is a bit of a hassle, I must say. You have a lot of responsibility.

57:53.00 – Brian David Crane

More paperwork?

57:54.46 – Bo Bink

Ah yeah. More paperwork. I hate it. I really hate it. But, I mean, it’s the first year you have a lot of hassle. After that, it goes by itself. But you do, of course, have to go through the insurance through the taxes. How do you say it?

58:12.41 – Brian David Crane

Tax filings and like the… Yeah.

58:16.00 – Bo Bink

Everybody has to do that. Once you have it right one time, will… but anyway, that is how the system works. So it gets first you get like the three midwives, the hospitals and we have the Kraamzorgs.

And from there on they do their thing. Yeah, that’s how it’s done.

58:42.00 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, let’s talk briefly just a little bit about some of the outcomes as well for the Dutch. So as we’re talking about costs, I said at the outset of the podcast that it costs 20% of what it costs in the States to give birth here.

I looked it up prior to the show. If you do a vaginal birth year, it’s about 3500 euros all in costs.

59:08.00 – Bo Bink

That’s what is included there? you know that?

59:13.00 – Brian David Crane

That includes prenatal delivery and 49 hours of postpartum care with the Kraamzorg.

59:18.99 – Bo Bink

Okay, but you don’t have to pay that all yourself.

59:26.00 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, correct. Yeah. It’s roughly zero to 500 out of pocket in terms of insurance. But the actual cost is still 3000 to 3500 euros right? Okay.

59:35.00 – Bo Bink

In the states?

59:36.00 – Brian David Crane

In the states for the same birth, vaginal birth, not a C-section, right? It’s $12,000 to $18,000, okay? Yeah. And then your out-of-pocket expenses, that’s prior to your insurance kicking in, let’s say, is $2,000 to $5,000, okay?

59:56.00 – Bo Bink

Wow.

59:57.00 – Brian David Crane

And the postpartum care is only limited to one-six week visit. And it’s usually, you have to go to the doctors. Like they’re not gonna send somebody to you.

01:00:10.00 – Bo Bink

But if you have problems like…

01:00:13.81 – Brian David Crane

Complications during the birth.

01:00:16.00 – Bo Bink

There are complications after birth. Because during birth, of course it’s a hospital thing. But after birth. Let’s say you get a breast infection or you just go to your GP or something.

01:00:31.00 – Brian David Crane

I don’t really know. I can tell you that there’s, yeah, I don’t really know, but I think that the root of that is that the person’s going to need to go to, there’s not going to be somebody in home who diagnoses it for them, number one. And number two is they’re going to have to proactively go let’s say that you see that the breast is getting infected on a scale of 1 to 10 and it’s like a 3 when you catch it, okay?

That person in the States is gonna be at a seven in terms of severity, five to a seven by the time that they go. Yeah, because you’re kids they’re not going to be able to get in on the same day, most likely either, right?

So, and you’re talking about something where you’re going to go through a couple more, at least one more night of lack of sleep or that the child’s not, is just getting formula as opposed to breast milk. So, yeah, and because there’s another stat, always like sharing this, but the Netherlands, yeah.

In terms of OECD countries, they have the kids that have the highest rate of happiness anywhere in the world. Lowest rate of use of depressants, anti-depressants, sorry, and highest rate of self-reported happiness.

I think it’s tied in with the birthing system.

01:01:50.00 – Bo Bink

You think?

01:01:51.00 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, I think it is because it’s, well, sorry, I want to hear what you have to say, but I just want to say that I think it’s tied in with just this emphasis on preventative, kind of like in-home care. Yeah, I think it’s like there’s a real push towards that.

01:02:08.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah, I think that’s true. But in some countries, it also has to do with the whole economic system. I mean, how much they earn and how, for instance, in Norway, Sweden, like the Scandinavian countries, they have this policy of having one year of maternity leave. And that also takes care of a lot of stress and also brings up your child in the right way.

Because that makes a stronger child if the bonding is okay, it makes your child stronger and therefore maybe better, better educated, a better job and so on so I think that the luck percentage that’s also written somewhere in those countries is the highest and it has a lot to do with the economy also so I think yes you’re right.

01:03:20.00 – Brian David Crane

Well, what does a Dutch woman have in terms of maternity leave? Like how long do they get to take maternity leave for?

01:03:30.18 – Bo Bink

16 weeks. And so if you choose to go 4 weeks before your due date, then you have more weeks after. So that’s how you can play with that a little bit.

01:03:43.15 – Brian David Crane

What’s the, what’s the reasoning there? So you actually, it encourages you to take a…

01:03:49.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah, maybe. and you have a choice. If you do well, then you can continue a bit longer. Maybe for some jobs it’s necessary to stay on longer. I don’t know.

01:04:01.00 – Brian David Crane

Maybe I misunderstood. So like let’s say your due date is June 1st and you elect to start your maternity leave on May 1st.

Let’s call it 4 weeks, although it’s not, but 4 weeks ahead of that. Then after the birth on June 1st, you get 16 weeks plus another four weeks?

01:04:22.00 – Bo Bink

No, no.

01:04:22.50 – Brian David Crane

Are you already…?

01:04:24.62 – Bo Bink

4 weeks before and then 16 minus 4.

01:04:27.00 – Brian David Crane

Oh, so you move it. It’s basically, you get 16 total and you can move it. Got it. Okay. Yeah. All right.

01:04:33.00 – Bo Bink

And the funny thing or the strange thing about it is they’re so solid with that. That even if you give birth 2 weeks after you leave your work, you have your fall off four weeks before your due date. And then in 2 weeks, you give birth. That’s actually a good thing.

01:04:58.00 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, because then you get more time after.

01:04:59.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah, more time after. Well, I mean, it’s nature besides that. Will not always. If you have medical reasons, that could be earlier. But in that case, probably medical wise, you have to stop working earlier. So that’s, but in general, that would be the case.

And then you have more weeks over. And now in Holland, it gets better and better. I’m happy with that development because fathers used to have two days, one for the birth, one for registering your child. Now they get 5 working days. So that’s a week. That’s already better.

01:05:43.00 – Brian David Crane

But it should be clear when you say 5 working days, it’s paid time off. That’s what, yeah. So, and for the mother, that’s 16 weeks of maternity leave is also paid time off. Right?

Yeah. So, because they can keep, they can stay on maternity leave after 16 weeks. It’s just unpaid.

01:06:02.00 – Bo Bink

It’s unpaid or paid for a part. Like so many percent. You get paid and the dad can do that also. Like the bear parents leave, it’s called… And then the dad can choose for that also. So you could also say one day less working for both parents because childcare is also costing a large amount of money yeah so it’s good that we have this development going on and I hope it continues to spread and get bigger because it gives families more chances and children also to have a good relaxed start.

01:06:53.71 – Brian David Crane

In life, let’s say. Yeah. Do you have an opinion or what is your opinion about breastfeeding as far as, what are they teaching when you’re in the certification process for becoming a Kraamzorg? And this is a point of contention, I should say this, because you and I had talked prior to the show about fed is best versus breast is best and kind of how that stacks up. Yeah. You want to share?

01:07:25.42 – Bo bink

Well, yeah. Of course, my opinion, my personal opinion, and also my professional opinion is breast is best. I can tell you that.

01:07:38.47 – Brian David Crane

And why is it best?

01:07:40.00 – Bo Bink

But they still don’t know everything about what is in the milk. Okay. They’re still finding out things, but the more things they find out about how much it does for the system of a newborn, the more I get like, yeah.

Breast milk is the best, but best is a word that is…

01:08:04.00 – Brian David Crane

Charged. It’s got connotations to it.

01:08:08.87 – Bo Bink

Yeah. Because, what is best for someone who has a trauma? It’s not good for the mother, a stressed mother gives a stressed baby. So then the word best has a different meaning. But if all is well and the mother can latch on the baby, then the milk that comes in, it’s good for allergic things later on, for asthma.

Even they found out that some types of cancer it helps against or not against, but it gives the immune system such a boost that it can fight that kind of cancer.

01:08:53.00 – Brian David Crane

Crazy. Yeah, you can put on wounds too. Yeah. I mean, like…

01:08:58.00 – Bo Bink

Yes, you use it on my infection. I make my own care stuff for the skin, for the baby. And sometimes maybe I can do it to you guys too tomorrow. I make a cream out of mother’s milk because it has, it gives smoothness to the skin, it cleans the skin, it actually goes against infection on the skin, it heals wounds.

I’ve seen babies with infection in the eye because of the tear duct that is stuck and then you clean it every time but just stays there, you know, if it stays too long it gets infected, you get a red eye and it’s swollen.

And if every time, I mean Josie had it a little bit on the side. Normally you get it on the inside because that is where the tear duct is, but she had it on the outside and it was a very irritated red spot there.

and I think Anne put drops of milk in there for 2 or 3 days and it was gone. Gone. So it’s really good. Yeah, it’s not for nothing that Cleopatra went bathing in donkey milk. It’s a little milk.

01:10:21.00 – Brian David Crane

That sounds like a Dutch expression translated into English. Yes, is it?

01:10:23.00 – Bo Bink

No, it’s not. You know Cleopatra was bathing in the milk of a donkey.

01:10:33.00 – Brian David Crane

I did not know that. No yeah yeah. Is this when she was spotted by…

01:10:36.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah, maybe. yeah I don’t know. But you see her in a white bath because it’s so caring and so nurturing. But they sell donkey milk in soap, in shampoos, they sell it. Also, horse milk tends to be very good for your immune system. But mother’s milk, the same. It boosts your immune system.

Actually, I did not tell Anne yet, but she should, the milk that she has now, because in the first week, there’s still some colostrum in there. Yes, the colostrum in there, the yellow fat stuff. Which is very rich in fats and in egg whites.

01:11:23.00 – Brian David Crane

Nutrient dense.

01:11:24.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah. If you freeze that in cubes and then maybe for Sophia, yeah when she has a cold, you mix that with her milk. So she gets an extra boost. You can do so much with it. So, and it comes naturally. So why not give it?

And sometimes women are not able to put the baby on the breast, but you can pump. And I’m not saying that…

01:11:59.00 – Brian David Crane

Everyone needs to do this.

01:12:01.00 – Bo Bink

No, because I know that there are reasons for not breastfeeding, but that is a different story. But in general, if you have it please even donate it if you don’t want to. You know, there’s a place for it where you can donate your milk. They check it on diseases. And then other small children in the hospital, like the, what do you call them? The early borns? The prenatal? They’re on the neo.

01:12:29.00 – Brian David Crane

Yeah.

01:12:31.09 – Bo Bink

And they have a better chance of living if they get that milk. So…

01:12:37.00 – Brian David Crane

To win.

01:12:37.00 – Bo Bink

So, yeah. It’s that important. That’s my statement about breastfeeding.

01:12:45.00 – Brian David Crane

Amazing.

01:12:47.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah, about breast milk actually. And breastfeeding also enhances the… How do you say that? Gehechtheid is bonding. But bonding, people think that you’re having a nice conversation with your child, but it’s more, bonding is about…

01:13:05.22 – Brian David Crane

Oxytocin, you two are paired together. You’re like, yeah,

01:13:09.00 – Bo Bink

You’re paired together and you get an extra connection. What makes your child be more self-conscious and like to be very blunt when they walk away from home, they tend to come back earlier when there’s a problem, and come back to their parents because they know that is a safe place. That is where I can…

01:13:34.00 – Brian David Crane

Get nourished. I’m so I can be protected there.

01:13:37.08 – Bo Bink

Yes. And that is all due to good bonding. A part of that, of course, is bringing up your child well is a big part also and surroundings like schooling and playgrounds are also contributing to that.
But it starts with being born, being breastfed with attention, you look at your child, feel that yeah sounds a bit, maybe yeah we call but get connected and exchange energy.

And then you’ll have a very not crying happy baby. Also not always because crabs kick in and that’s not nice, but in general, the basics do that. So yeah, that’s breastfeeding. Yeah, it’s a powerful thing.

01:14:34.00 – Brian David Crane

So for those listening who would like to… Yeah, I’d like to learn more about the Dutch system or like to learn more about you. Is there anything you want to leave them with? I feel like we’ve covered most of the points I had thought of prior to this podcast.

Is there a message for mothers to be?

01:15:00.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah, I think what I always say is that in terms of giving birth, give birth where you feel safe. And it doesn’t matter where they are. It’s just where you feel safe. I’m not against hospitals, but as long as you feel safe, you’ll have a good chance of going through birth more smoothly.

So that’s one. aAnd the second thing is before you give a judgment about breastfeeding, yes or no, read yourself in. Just get some books about breastfeeding and not only from the media, but just from breastfeeding centers or where you get the right information. Because there’s a lot of rubbish going around.

01:15:54.05 – Brian David Crane

Do you think that there is a concentrated effort to get women away from breastfeeding? And why I mean that is like, you could say that if you were, and I’m gonna play a hypothetical here, but let’s say you wanted to get women back to work as quickly as possible post birth, right?

Postpartum. Then getting them away from breastfeeding is a way to get them back to work quicker because you can give them formula, give the newborn formula. The mother doesn’t spend time breastfeeding? Like Is there an economic push to demonize breastfeeding? I don’t know if that’s a weighted question. But it’s…

01:16:45.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah, it is because some companies, right not so long ago, there was a new law that says that all companies need to make at least so much time for the women to pump or breastfeed or have the time to go home and breastfeed. So what you’re asking me is the other way around.

01:17:03.01 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, in the Netherlands it already got addressed, let’s say. Yeah.

01:17:10.00 – Bo Bink

But there are still a lot of companies who make it so difficult for you. To do breastfeeding or even pumping. Very unfriendly. Somewhere in the back of the hospital where you work, that you have to go two-storey up.

01:17:27.00 – Brian David Crane

Yeah. It’s a 20 minute walk to get there.

01:17:32.43 – Bo Bink

So they make it almost impossible. I’m happy that it gets less, but that would sabotage things and further. Yeah. What would be the reason? I don’t know. I think, yeah.

01:17:48.00 – Brian David Crane

But one thing is also important: you talked about your fulfillment in this work and how much you enjoy it. And as an outsider to the system, seeing it with a different set of eyes, I have found it very informative to look at it and then also look at the outcomes for the Dutch from it and go, this is a nice way of welcoming a new life into the world, right?

And not only is it a nice way of welcoming a new life into the world, it’s also a really nice way to make a mom feel comfortable and confident and healthy and not like on an island, yeah not isolated.

01:18:32.57 – Bo Bink

So think for yourself. Not let other people. Basically, the last thing I want to say about it in general is that women and maybe also the dads should listen to their intuition. Because in the Western world, we kind of forgot about that. But we used to have in the stone ages, we had a radar which perfectly tuned in on everything and told your body what to do.

We forgot about that because we have a lot of interference from the medical media. So we don’t trust our own instincts anymore. But if you try and find that there are different ways to do that from meditating to reading a book to just look at sensible stuff um and try to find that back because it will tell you if things are right or wrong also in terms of giving breastfeeding.

So listen to your intuition, I would say.

01:19:42.00 – Brian David Crane

Okay, thank you. Bo, if people wanna learn more about you, you have a website.

01:19:44.00 – Bo Bink

I have a website. There’s a small story about it. But yeah, I do. People can look me up. Bokraamzorg.nl

01:19:55.00 – Brian David Crane

We will put it in the show notes.

01:19:57.00 – Bo Bink

Yes, you can do that. And if they want to ask me something about Kraamzorg, I’m happy to answer. Maybe you can also put my email address there.

01:20:09.00 – Brian David Crane

Sure.

01:20:09.10 – Bo Bink

If people want to ask me things, I would love to. Anyway, I would love to do my work in the States. If anybody has, let’s say, get me a ticket, then I will do it maybe even one time for free.

Just to let them see how great it can be.

01:20:29.00 – Brian David Crane

Yeah, that’s cool. Okay. There’s a standing offer folks. You have to pay for her travel and room and board, but you would have Bo in your home.

01:20:39.77 – Bo Bink

Yeah. I think I would do that.

01:20:42.00 – Brian David Crane

Thanks. Depends on where in the States you want to go.

01:20:45.00 – Bo Bink

I think, yeah, well, Florida’s nice.

01:20:48.00 – Brian David Crane

Okay. There you go. Yeah.

01:20:51.00 – Bo Bink

No, I would do it anywhere. I think maybe not in the ghetto, it would be a bit dangerous for me. Yeah. But in a reasonable house, I’m not asking a lot. Having food and everything and then I’m okay.

01:21:04.89 – Brian David Crane

Cool.

01:21:05.00 – Bo Bink

Yeah. It would be a good experience.

01:21:08.00 – Brian David Crane

Lovely. Thanks, Bo. Thanks for coming on.

01:21:10.00 – Bo Bink

No, thank you. I’ve got to learn a lot.